§ 2.35 p.m.
§ Lord STONHAMMy Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question which stands in my name on the Order Paper.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask Her Majesty's Government if they are aware of the difficulty in recruiting technicians for the public health laboratory service, and, if they will take steps to remove the disparity between the salary scales in this service and those for similar technicians employed in the hospital and local authority services.]
§ Lord NEWTONMy Lords, when I answered a rather similar Question from the noble Lord last week, he scolded me for a "stone-walling" response, which would, he implied, have been more useful at Lord's than in the Lords. I happily accept the invitation of yesterday's victor ludorum to take four runs off him. There is no disparity between the salary scales of medical laboratory technicians employed in the Public Health Laboratory Service and those of similar technicians employed in the hospital and local health authority services.
§ Baroness SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, I agree, with all due respect to my noble friend, that there is no disparity, but is there not a disparity between the medical auxiliaries in the various Services and those serving in industry and using their qualifications for other purposes. Is there not such a disparity that there is therefore a shortage of auxiliaries in all these medical services?
§ Lord NEWTONMy Lords, so far as the Public Health Laboratory Service is concerned, all the chief technician posts, 48 in number, and all the senior technician posts, 106 in number, are 1254 filled. There are 32 unfilled technician and student technician posts out of an establishment of 386—that is, 8.3 per cent. As regards the noble Baroness's question about the comparison with jobs in industry, in some cases there may be a disparity, but I think that the noble Lady will recall that in April, when we debated the question of the salaries of professional classes in the National Health Service, I pointed out at considerable length that we cannot compare salaries in the Public Service, which have to apply uniformly all over the country, with salaries paid to the same sort of people whom industry employs to meet special needs.
§ BARONESS SUMMERSKILLMy Lords, may I remind the noble Lord, that the noble Lord, Lord Amulree, complained that it would be quite impossible in future to run some of our medical services unless salaries were increased to such an extent that they would attract new recruits?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, that is a debatable point. We did debate this subject at considerable length and I doubt whether your Lordships would wish me to have the debate all over again in reply to a question.
§ LORD STONHAMMy Lords, having recaptured the bowling and acknowledging the surprise into which I was thrown by being bowled at from both ends at the same time, I would advise the noble Lord that, according to my information, his first ball was wide, in that the Public Health Laboratory Service technicians are convinced that they are earning less than the local authority technicians in the same grade. It is twelve months since we passed the Public Health Laboratory Service Act. Can the noble Lord say whether the Act has yet been implemented? In any case, since technicians cannot be recruited into this Service because of low salaries, will the noble Lord look into the matter as vigorously as he prepared the Answer to my question?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, I find it hard to believe that these technicians are convinced that there is a disparity in their salaries, because, in fact, there is no disparity, as I have said. Furthermore, it is proposed to continue to apply National Health Service rates to technicians employed by the Public Health Laboratory Service. I gave the number 1255 of unfilled vacancies in reply to the question by the noble Baroness, Lady Summerskill, and I submit that 8.3 per cent. is not a very high figure.
§ LORD TAYLORMy Lords, is it not the case that the discrepancy is due to the back-dating of pay rises? When National Health Service technicians get an award, I think it will be found that their pay is dated from a certain date, but when the Laboratory Service technicians get an award it is not back-dated to the same extent; and there, I think, lies the discrepancy. Is that not correct?
§ LORD NEWTONMy Lords, that, I am afraid, I do not know. But even if the noble Lord were right about that, it still does not follow that there is a disparity between the salary scales for these respective technicians.