§ 3.43 p.m.
§ THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE)My Lords, with your Lordships' permission I will repeat the statement on the Security Council meeting to-day which has just been made by my right honourable and learned friend, the Foreign Secretary, in another place.
As your Lordships are aware, a meeting of the Security Council is at present taking place to decide what action to take on a request from a number of African and Asian countries that it consider the situation arising from the recent tragic events in the Union of South Africa.
The first business of the Council is the agenda for the Meeting. The United Kingdom representative has instructions not to oppose the discussion of the item requested by the African and Asian countries. We do, however, adhere to our view that in accordance with Article 2, sub-paragraph 7, of the Charter, nothing in the Charter authorises the 494 United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any State.
It is the primary responsibility of the Security Council to promote the maintenance of international peace and security. We have a very delicate situation. I am sure the House will join with me in hoping that the Security Council discussion will contribute to an alleviation of the situation.
§ 3.45 p.m.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, we are much obliged to the noble Marquess for giving us the statement which has been made by the right honourable and learned gentleman, the Foreign Secretary, in another place; and, of course, we welcome very much the decision that has been made that our representative at the Security Council will be instructed not to oppose the inclusion of the request from the Afro-Asian countries to include in the agenda of the Security Council for discussion the recent tragic events in South Africa. When we come to consider the very well expressed hope that the noble Marquess mentioned in the last part of his statement, it seems to me that in the interim period many people in this country will be wondering exactly what action the representative of Her Majesty's Government will take, in view of the nature of the submission of the Afro-Asian nations that the events in South Africa constitute, in their view, a threat to peace—
§ EARL WINTERTONWhy?
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGH—in a very widespread area of the African nations. On that, although I fully realise the great importance this country plays in the Commonwealth, as the senior, the oldest, member of the Commonwealth—it is very important, and I recognise that it is a delicate situation—I hope that we shall not be lacking in forthrightness in expressing our view on this matter so far as it represents a growing danger to peace in the sphere of the African countries. Certainly I hope that it will be borne in mind that other members of the Commonwealth did not hesitate, for example, to state their view and cast their vote when a threat to peace was being considered by the United Nations in the case of Suez; and in a matter of this 495 great importance, while I do not want in any way to harry Her Majesty's Government on the matter, I hope that the instructions given to our representative there will be adequate and will really seek to express views so clearly held by the nation at large.
§ 3.48 p.m.
§ LORD PETHICK-LAWRENCEMy Lords, may I venture, with great trepidation, to put forward something that I should like to have considered by your Lordships and possibly by the Government of the day? It seems to me that there are two principles involved: one, that one country should not intervene in the internal affairs of another, and, the second, whether the action (whether it is internal or external) of one country is threatening the peace of the world. I would venture to point out that where what purports to be the internal action of a country deals differently with different races, and the races within the country have a relationship with persons who form the citizens of other countries, what appears to be an ordinary internal question becomes automatically an external question as well, because it brings in the peoples of the other sovereign States.
May I remind your Lordships of what was the case when we were still in control of India? There was discrimination in South Africa and, I believe, in other parts of Africa affecting persons from India who had gone to Africa to work as labourers. The Government of India, which was then British, frequently protested to the African country about the treatment of the Indians in its midst. That seems to me to be a precedent which, I hope, Her Majesty's Government will not entirely forget when this question is dealt with at the United Nations.
LORD REAMy Lords, may I just say from this quarter of the House that we very much support what has fallen from the lips of the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence. In fact, I am again in the embarrassing position, as always, of finding what the noble Lord says highly admirable. With regard to Article 2, subparagraph 7, of the Charter, might I impress upon Her Majesty's Government that they should instruct our representative at the Security Council not to take too rigid and technical a view of this, for 496 the very reasons which have been so clearly expressed by the noble Lord on my left.
§ EARL WINTERTONMy Lords, I feel it is desirable that someone on this side of the House should say a word on this subject. I do not want to take part in a debate, but I hope that the noble Viscount the Leader of the Opposition, the noble Lord the Leader of the Liberal Party, and the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, will take some other opportunity of explaining what they mean by the statement that events in South Africa, deplorable as they are, are jeopardising the peace of the world—I think that was their term. Perhaps they will have some opportunity of explaining what they mean by that. When they do so, may I respectfully invite their attention to other events in Africa which might in their opinion also be endangering the peace of the world: the situation in Ghana, where members of the Opposition are locked up and about to be flogged and where the Leader of the Opposition is in flight in this country; or the situation in the Congo. I hope we shall have some explanation at some later date of the views of noble Lords opposite on these subjects.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I do not think that any of your Lordships would wish to embark upon a debate on this very grave situation. I think it is perhaps unnecessary for me to point out to the noble Viscount, the Leader of the Opposition, that, of course, no resolution has yet been tabled, and I think we should consider this matter in that light. So far as the observations of the noble Lord, Lord Pethick-Lawrence, are concerned, of course we will take note of what he said. I think we cannot escape this thought: that if the United Nations were to intervene in matters which are within the domestic jurisdiction of any State, a really impossible situation would be created. With your Lordships' permission, I should prefer not to say any more at this juncture. I should also like to thank noble Lords opposite for the manner in which they have approached this problem.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, may I ask one question? I understand that thousands of British subjects move from Nyasaland or the Protectorates to 497 work in the Union. They are advised by officers of the Government—I presume, labour officers. What instructions are given to them about obeying the pass laws of the Union Government?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEMy Lords, I do not think that has a direct bearing, and I feel that the noble Viscount would not wish to press me to say anything which might exacerbate the present situation.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEMy Lords, I am far from wishing to exacerbate a tragic situation, going from bad to worse. There is the declaration of Mr. Mboya; the speech from Mr. Erasmus—dreadful! But when a Basuto goes to work in the Union, do we tell him to get a reference book or not?
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR COMMONWEALTH RELATIONS (THE EARL OF HOME)My Lords, the noble Marquess has really answered the question and repeated the statement which was made by the Foreign Secretary. The noble Viscount will have the whole of the Order Paper for the rest of the Session on which to put down any Question.
VISCOUNT STANSGATEI should have thought that the noble Earl the Leader of the House as Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations would have investigated this matter for himself, because the land is in a blaze.
THE EARL OF HOMEMy Lords, I do not suggest that I do not know the answer to the noble Viscount's question, but I am not going to give it unless he puts a Question on the Paper.
§ VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLSBOROUGHMy Lords, I am much obliged for the answer which the noble Marquess gives, but I ought to point out that the nature of the communications of the Afro-Asian countries certainly lead back to what is to be discussed in the Security Council and what is on the agenda of the United Nations. I would only ask him to consider objectively and very carefully the words I used and to show them to his right honourable friend. As to the intervention of the noble Earl, Lord Winterton, we are always willing to debate on these questions at any time.