§ 2.40 p.m.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, with your Lordships' permission, I should like to ask the noble Marquess the Leader of the House a Question on Business. I received my Minutes of Proceedings for May 31 down in the country and then Business was as I left arranged with the Government Office last week. There was to be considered to-morrow a Motion by my noble friend Lord Ogmore on Welsh afforestation. This morning, on arriving at the House, I found that the Business has been entirely altered; that the Motion which was down for to-morrow has been withdrawn and the Motion which was to have been discussed to-day in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Saltoun, has been transferred to to-morrow—through no fault of the noble Lord, I am sure. As the arrangement about Wednesday had previously been discussed between the Government Office and myself, and as I had made a firm arrangement for it, I fail to understand why this rearrangement was not done through the usual channels. I hope that the noble Marquess knows that we want to facilitate Business all we can, but if it is to be done on the basis of real co-operation and amity, then I think we should slick to the usual channels.
THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (THE MARQUESS OF SALIS-BURY)My Lords, the noble Viscount has asked a Question of which he was good enough to give me notice. My noble friend Lord St. Aldwyn, who conducted the actual negotiations, would himself like to explain exactly what happened. I would suggest that when he has done so, I should say anything more that has to be said.
THE JOINT PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY, MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE, FISHERIES AND FOOD (EARL ST. ALDWYN)My Lords, I must take full responsibility for this situation. I approached the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, earlier last week, suggesting that he might wish to postpone his Motion. He made it clear that he did not wish to do so. My reply was that I hoped that I should be able to give the answers to the sort of questions that were likely to be raised in the debate. Unfortunately, it was not until Friday that I was certain that I should not be able to give the kind of answers to which I think your Lordships would be fully entitled. I therefore got in touch with the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, and asked him whether he would be prepared to postpone his Motion until such time as I was in a position to answer the questions which were likely to be asked. I appreciate that it was short notice, but unfortunately I was not in a position to say whether I could answer the questions or not until Friday.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I should like to say a word or two more before the noble Marquess replies. As I have already indicated, this matter had been under discussion before, through the usual channels, and we had decided that, although the request had been made to us, we must adhere to the taking of the Motion as on the Order Paper. We understood at that time that the debate would be replied to on behalf of the Government by the representative of the Home Office who answers on Welsh matters. It is curious to find that a separate approach is made on behalf of the Minister of Agriculture, who, of course, is entitled to represent his office how he likes—that is not my business. The whole aspect of the situation seems to me to have completely changed. We never heard a word about not being able to answer questions 708 on afforestation, and notice of the Motion was given six weeks ago—two or three weeks with no date named and the last three weeks with a fixed date. We feel that we are not being quite rightly treated.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I am sure the noble Viscount will realise that it was not the intention of the Government. As my noble friend has already explained, the point is that there turned out to be no possibility on this particular date of giving the House an adequate answer. If the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, had felt that he wished to have his debate and was quite prepared to have no answer to it, then it was open to him, as it is open to any noble Lord, to say that he would stand by his date. I think the Government were in duty bound to tell the mover of the Motion that if he had his debate on this particular date he would get an inadequate answer, but that if he postponed it for a short time he would get an adequate answer. Where the pity comes in is that it was only so late that it was possible to give him that information. I can assure the noble Viscount that it will be my object, and I am sure the object of all noble Lords on the Front Bench, to see that it does not happen again. As my noble friend Lord St. Aldwyn has explained, he did hope early last week to be able to justify the debate with the Government answer that would be given, and it was only further inquiries that convinced him that that was not the case. It is open to noble Lords on the other side of the House to proceed with a debate knowing that they will not get an answer from the Government; but that is not very satisfactory to the House.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, there is another aspect of this matter, in that not only the mover of the Motion but other noble Lords make arrangements to be here on a particular day. In this case that was so. They, too, are inconvenienced by this sudden withdrawal at so late a date.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI say, frankly, that the notice was short; I am sorry that it happened, and I will do my best to see that it does not happen again.
VISCOUNT ALEXANDER OF HILLS-BOROUGHMy Lords, I take note of what the noble Marquess has said, and I 709 am obliged to him for his answer. But when an Opposition is behind a Motion, as we are in this case, then we sometimes feel—and I have known it expressed in another place in the same way—that whether the Government are ready to answer or not, it may well be that the Opposition have something constructive to offer that may be of some help to the Government in making up their minds what they are going to do. I do not think we should be turned away from our determination, as we have been in this case, without the matter going through the proper channels.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, it would have been open to the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, to say that he would rather not postpone, or that he felt that he ought to consult with the Leader of his Party. He did not do that. I am not complaining of the noble Lord, Lord Ogmore, who was most helpful, but we were not bringing any pressure on the noble Lord, but merely informing him of the facts.