§ 4.49 p.m.
§ Amendments reported (according to Order).
§ Clause 1:
§ Upholstering, etc., to be done on registered premises
§ 1.—(1) Subject to the provisions of this section, it shall be unlawful in the course of a business to use filling materials to which this Act applies in upholstering or in any other activity consisting of the stuffing or lining of any article, other than an article of clothing, except on premises registered by a local authority.
§ (2) The foregoing subsection shall not make it unlawful to carry on on unregistered premises—
- (a) any activity in connection with the building or making or fitting out of railway carriages, road vehicles, ships or aircraft;
- (b) the remaking or reconditioning of any article;
- (c) such other activities as may be prescribed.
§ THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR) moved, in subsection (1) to leave out all words from and including "upholstering" down to "except," and to insert "any activity specified in subsection (2) of this section." The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment and the seventeen Amendments which follow are consequent upon the discussions on the Committee stage of the Bill. I am glad to inform your Lordships that the two noble Lords who showed most interest in the Bill at Committee stage were good enough to consult with me on these matters, and I am privileged now to place all these eighteen Amendments before the House knowing that both the noble Lords, Lord Merthyr and Lord Llewellin, are in agreement with them. Therefore, I shall not need to give extensive comments on any Amendment. The Amendment before the House and the next Amendment fulfil the undertaking given in Committee to consider whether the Government could 551 state positively the activities to which the clause should apply, instead of making it apply to everything not excluded. We have tried to meet the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Llewellin, and I hope your Lordships will accept this Amendment. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 1, line 8, leave out from first ("in") to ("except") in line 10 and insert ("any activity specified in subsection (2) of this section ").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this Amendment completely meets a point which I raised on the Committee stage. It seemed to me that the original words were much wider than were needed. It came out in the course of discussion that they almost certainly included the whole taxidermist's art: the stuffing of a tiger, or anything like that, would be included in the measure. The Bill was not meant to apply to such avocations, and by putting in the actual articles we achieve what was intended. I am indebted to the noble Lord for moving this Amendment to meet the point I raised on Committee stage.
LORD MERTHYRMy Lords, I should like to say a few words on the first two Amendments, which I believe we are considering together. I am not resisting the Amendments, but paragraph (a) of the second Amendment, "the remaking or reconditioning of any article," contains a weakness in this respect: that it enables an article to be remade or reconditioned with the use of new materials which may be dirty. I admit that there is real difficulty here to arrive at a right solution, but I feel it my duty once again to point out what I think will be an undoubted weakness in the Bill. The time has passed for suggesting a further remedy, and I will not try and do so this afternoon.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 1, line 12, leave out subsection (2) and insert—
("() The activities referred to in the foregoing subsection are any form of upholstering and, without prejudice to the generality of that expression, the stuffing or lining of bedding, toys, baby carriages and of articles of such other kinds as may be prescribed:
§ Provided that there shall not be included among those activities—
- (a) the remaking or reconditioning of any article; or
- (b) any upholstering in connection with the building or making or fitting out of railway carriages, road vehicles, ships or aircraft or upholstering of such other kinds as may be prescribed").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 2 [Registration of Premises]:
§
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to add to the clause:
() If at any time premises registered under this Act are no longer being put to a use necessitating their registration, the local authority may strike the relevant entry out of their register, but this shall be without prejudice to the right to make a further application under this section for registering the premises again.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment refers to the keeping by local authorities of registers of upholstery businesses. Without this provision local authorities would have to keep on registers premises once registered, no matter how long the premises might, in fact, have ceased to be used for upholstery businesses. This Amendment will enable them to keep the registers up to date. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 17, at end insert the said sub-section.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, this was not a point we raised on the Committee stage, but we can have no objection to it. I thought it was an inherent power that if the local authority could put people on the register they could take them off. However, if that is not clear in the Bill it is as well to have these words inserted.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 3 [Offences as respects unclean filling materials]:
§
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to leave out sub-sections (1) and (2), and to insert:
() If on any premises registered under this Act there are filling materials to which this Act applies which are not clean, the occupier of the premises shall be guilty of an offence, unless he proves—
553
() If any person sells, on the demand of a purchaser for filling materials to which this Act applies which are clean within the meaning of this Act any filling materials to which this Act applies which are not clean, he shall be guilty of an offence.
The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment has the same intention as the Amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, in Committee—namely, to provide that a person who has dirty materials on registered premises shall not be guilty of an offence if he is merely reconditioning second-hand articles be-longing to someone else. This Amendment also takes the opportunity of reversing the order of subsections (1) and (2). The new order is more logical. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 2, line 18, leave out subsections (1) and (2) and insert the said new subsections.— (Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 4 [Rag flock for filling to be manufactured and kept at licensed premises]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORThe next two Amendment arc consequential Amendments. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 10, leave out ("(2)") and insert ("(1)").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 3, line 19. leave out ("(2)") and insert f"(l)").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 6 [Licensing of premises for manufacturing rag flock]:
§
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved, after subsection (5), to insert:
() On any appeal under the last fore-going subsection—
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment gives effect to two suggestions, made, I think, by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, on the Committee stage, and relating to appeals from local authorities' refusals to give licences. One was that the local authorities' opinions on the ground for refusal should not be conclusive; and the other was that the appellant should have a hearing before an appeal was decided. Both those points are now met. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 4, line 16, at end insert the said sub-section.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, although it was attributed to my noble friend Lord Merthyr, I believe it was I who made both the points, and therefore I feel it is only right that I should thank the noble Lord for having met them. I rather wanted the appeal to be to the courts, where the hearing could be in open court before an impartial tribunal. During the course of discussion we found out that by the words of the Bill as originally drafted, if it appeared to the local authority that the premises were of a certain kind, it would probably not be in order for the Minister to go behind the back of the local authority. That gave rise to part of this Amendment. I was also supported by the noble Lord. Lord Silkin, when he said that he hoped the inquiry was going to be not just an inquiry in a Ministry, but an inquiry by a person sent down from the Ministry and appointed for the purpose. Although the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, could not give an authoritative ruling at that time, he has now moved this Amendment. Under it both sides also have the right to be represented if they wish. I feel that we have improved the Bill considerably in this respect, and I should like once more to thank the noble Lord for having met me in this way.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, I feel that I should withdraw from my remarks the name of the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, and insert that of the noble Lord. Lord Llewellin.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
555§ Clause 7 [Licensing of premises for storing rag flock]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment has the same effect as regards appeals for licences relating to rag flock stores. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 5, line 5, at end insert—
(" () on any appeal under the last fore-going subsection—
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 9 [Records to be kept on registered and licensed premises]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon one already agreed to in Clause 3. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 5, line 40, at end insert ("and of all second-hand articles containing filling materials to which this Act applies delivered to or con-signed from the premises ").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 10 [Selling of articles containing unclean materials]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon one already made in Clause 1. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 6, line 26, after ("clean") insert—
("and
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
556§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 6, line 37, leave out subsection (4).— (Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 11 [Saving for existing stocks]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential upon Amendments to Clause 1. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 7, line 40, at end insert—
(" () Regulations prescribing additional kinds of articles for the purposes of section one of this Act may apply the foregoing sub-section with any necessary modifications to articles of those kinds.")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 15:
§ Right to have samples tested
§ (4) The Minister of Local Government and Planning and the Secretary of State acting jointly may by statutory instrument make regulations providing for the cases in which a fee may be charged for a test under this section and for the amount of the fee and any such statutory instrument shall be laid before Parliament.
§
LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved, in subsection (4) to leave out all words from the beginning of the subsection down to "acting" and to insert:
() It shall be the duty of the Ministers making regulations prescribing analysts for the purposes of this Act to secure that, except where a public analyst is prescribed, any person so prescribed has first given his consent and has a right to withdraw his consent after reasonable notice.
() The said Ministers.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, this Amendment relates to Amendments made to Clause 14 on the Committee stage enabling the Government to prescribe alternative arrangements where for some reason it is not practicable for the samples to go to the public analyst. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 10, line 9, leave out from beginning to ("acting") in line 10 and insert the said new words.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
557§ Clause 18:
§ Penalties
§
18. A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall, unless a special penalty for that offence is provided by this Act, be liable—
(b) in the case of a second offence, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds;
(c) in the case of a third or subsequent offence, to a fine not exceeding one hundred pounds or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to both.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGOR moved to omit paragraph (b). The noble Lord said: My Lords, this and the next Amendment have the effect of making what was the penalty for the third offence the penalty for the second and subsequent offences. To some extent it goes to meet a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, on the Committee stage. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 1, leave out from the beginning to end of line 2.—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
LORD MERTHYRMy Lords, even though this represents a concession so small as to be hardly noticeable, nevertheless, as a matter of courtesy I think I should thank the noble Lord for dropping this infinitesimal crumb off his table.
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, I have never yet heard an increase in a maximum penalty described as a concession, but if that is the way in which the noble Lord, Lord Merthyr, looks at it, I think we should all agree with this Amendment.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, the next Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 11, line 3, leave out ("third") and insert ("second").—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaensygor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 33 [Filling materials to which this Act applies]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment groups the various kinds of filling materials for greater clarity, and adds one material which was overlooked —namely, woollen felt. I beg to move.
§ Amendment moved—
§
Page 15, line 12, leave out from ("are") to the end of section and insert—
(" (a) rag flock,
(b) unwoven cotton, cotton linters, cotton millpuffs, cotton felt, cotton flock,
(c) unwoven wool, woollen felt, woollen flock,
(d) jute,
(e) unwoven synthetic fibres, synthetic fibre flock,
(f) hair,
(g) feathers or down,
(h) kapok,
(i) coir fibre, Algerian fibre, Mexican fibre, sisal,
(j) seaweed, seagrass, Spanish moss,
(k) straw or chaff,
(l) such other materials as may be prescribed.") — (Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause 36 [Application to Scotland]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is preparatory to the next, and must be moved in order to make the next Amendment possible. The deletion of subsections (4) and (5) is necessary in order to give effect to the next Amendment, which should have been moved by the noble Lord, Lord Douglas of Barloch, at an earlier stage. He willingly withdrew it then, and he has expressed his regret that he cannot be with us to-day. The suggestion is that county court procedure would be better than arbitration for settling disputes as to compensation for damage done in sampling. The subsections which it is proposed to omit provide for the appoint-ment of an arbiter in Scotland and for appeal against his decision; if an Amend-ment is made to the Schedule, this provision, of course, becomes unnecessary. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 16, line 21, leave out subsections (4) and (5).—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ LORD LLEWELLINMy Lords, I think it is right that we should make this Amendment. I pointed out at the time that if we had to settle disputes by arbitration, we must have somebody to decide on the arbitrator in default of agreement between the two parties. If we are now inserting the county court in England, and the sheriff in Scotland, that completely meets the point. In any event, I do not think there will be many cases.
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.
559§ Schedule [Taking of samples from filling materials in articles]:
§ LORD MACDONALD OF GWAENYSGORMy Lords, this Amendment is consequential. I beg to move.
§
Amendment moved—
Page 17, line 18, leave out from ("be") to the end of the Schedule and insert ("referred to and determined by the county court, or, in Scotland, the sheriff.")—(Lord Macdonald of Gwaenysgor.)
§ On Question, Amendment agreed to.