§ 5.2 p.m.
§ LORD MARCHWOODMy Lords, I beg to ask the question standing on the Paper in my name.
§ [The Question was as follows:
§ To ask His Majesty's Government whether they will follow the action of the Government of the Straits Settlements, who whilst realising that distress and inconvenience may possibly be caused to a certain number of innocent persons have decided to intern all enemy aliens, as they are not prepared to take any unnecessary risks in the 875 present state of world affairs, and whether, if for any reason they consider it undesirable to intern them in this country, they will take steps as soon as possible to arrest and ship them wherever they will constitute the least danger to the State.]
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODMy Lords, before the question is answered I should like to make a few observations upon it.
§ LORD MARCHWOODOn a point of order I would mention that I starred this question because I thought it would be far better to have no debate on it. I understood that in your Lordships' House that is the right procedure.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODI am in your Lordships' hands, but I remember well in my own experience the contrary course being pursued. I put down a question which was starred, and I think it was Lord Novar who desired to make some observations upon it either before it was answered or after it was answered, on the ground that any question brought before the House may be debated by your Lordships. If any noble Lord puts down a question with a star in front of it the star indicates that he does not intend to make a speech. That is all it indicates. It was so decided in that case, which I remember very well because I was taken by surprise, in the same way that the noble Lord, Lord Marchwood, has been taken by surprise, and I thought that there could be no debate.
§ VISCOUNT CALDECOTEMy Lords, I am sure your Lordships will desire on all occasions to hear the noble Viscount, but I think a question is starred not only to indicate that the noble Lord who puts a question does not desire to make a speech but also that he does not desire to raise a debate. I am sure that you would not desire to prevent the noble Viscount making some observations in this case.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODIn view of the indication given by the noble Viscount the Leader of the House any observations I make will be extremely brief, but I think it is desirable in a matter of such great importance that this question should not pass without any explanation.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKDoes that mean that the whole question is open to debate and that when the noble Viscount has finished his speech other noble Lords can speak?
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODI think that must be dealt with when the question arises.
§ VISCOUNT CALDECOTEI think the proper course is for noble Lords to form their own opinion as to the best course to pursue. I have made my observations as to the purpose of starring a question. If the noble Viscount thinks it right to make a few observations I am not going to say that that is a reason why others should do so also.
§ VISCOUNT BLEDISLOEOn a point of order I should like to mention that I happen to be the originator of starred questions in your Lordships' House. I asked particularly when I entered your Lordships' House whether it could be made a practice in future to star questions according to the custom which was in operation in another place. I was told that that would be done. Starred questions were then initiated and I certainly understood, and I think it was understood generally, that whatever was done in this connection in another place would be done in connection with starred questions here.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODI think, if I may say so, that that is a very hazardous conclusion to arrive at with respect to the proceedings of your Lordships' House. I do not want to say anything critical of the noble Lord, Lord Newton, but it is perfectly certain that he would not have been allowed to make in the other House the speech which he did make in your Lordships' House a short time ago.
VISCOUNT ELIBANKMay I ask the noble Viscount the Leader of the House whether this means that in future it is useless putting down starred questions? It is an important point.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODYou can make observations about a point of order without asking the noble Viscount the Leader of the House. Every Peer is entitled to make his own observations on matters of order.
§ LORD MARCHWOODMay I say that I would rather like to have an answer from the Government before anything further is said.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODVery well, and then I can make any observations that occur to me after the answer has been given.
§ LORD CROFTMy Lords, the policy of His Majesty's Government was fully explained by my noble friend the Duke of Devonshire in speeches which he made in reply to the noble Viscount, Lord Elibank, on May 23 and June 12. The policy up to that date was individual examination and individual internment. Unfortunately, after the invasion of Holland and Belgium and the overthrow of France the danger of invasion of this country was greatly increased, and therefore on grounds of military necessity the Government have already accepted the principle of the internment of large categories of enemy aliens. Every effort is being made to send overseas to the Dominions as many civilian internees as the Dominions are willing to accept and for whom accommodation can be provided.
§ LORD MARCHWOODI thank the noble Lord for his reply.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODMy Lords, I am pat in a difficult position by the course which has been pursued. If there is a feeling in your Lordships' House that I ought not to speak I have not the slightest desire to impose myself on the attention of the House, but if there is no objection I should like to make a few observations because I feel, particularly after the answer that has been given by my noble friend, that there may be a misunderstanding as to what really is taking place. The noble Lord, Lord Marchwood, has recommended a perfectly definite policy—the internment of all aliens without any exception.
§ LORD MARCHWOODEnemy aliens.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODBe it so. All enemy aliens without any 878 exception. That seems to me to be a dangerous and unjust policy and I should like very much to point out that the danger which affected other countries did not arise mainly from enemy aliens. Quisling in Norway was not an enemy alien; he was a Norwegian. The King of the Belgians was not an enemy alien. The men who have organised—in spite of my noble friend Viscount Elibank—the collapse of France are there, as I think it will turn out when all the facts are known, as the result of a very discreditable conspiracy.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODI am not going to give way to you.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODThe collapse in France was due to the action of certain sections of the French people. After all, the very phrase "Fifth Column" of which we have heard so much was instituted during the siege of Madrid as indicating the number of Spaniards inside Madrid who were favourable to the people who were at that moment attacking Madrid. That is the danger. Therefore I do hope that we shall be very careful what we are doing about these unhappy refugees, these enemy aliens who are refugees in this country. Nothing has been proved; I have not seen a single proof yet that an enemy alien refugee has been guilty of treasonable action in this country. There may have been cases, but I have not seen any evidence of that at all. On the other hand, we have heard about the Daily Worker, and there have been other cases of persons quite at the opposite end of the political scale to the Daily Worker who have certainly been charged with treasonable action. If, therefore, the true diagnosis of the danger that we are in is that it does not arise from the action of enemy aliens, we must be very careful what remedy we apply to it. I have seen something of these refugees during all these years before the war began. They are men who have suffered and worked for the anti-Nazi cause, infinitely more than I have, and possibly even more than my noble friend Lord Marchwood has.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODI am not making any charge against Lord Marchwood; I did not mean to make one; but nobody, however loyal, in this country has done or suffered half of what some of these men have done and suffered in their efforts to resist the Nazi tyranny. They come to this country, they are received, they are given work to do on behalf of this country, they are allowed to earn their living, they set up businesses which give a good deal of work not only to themselves but also to some of our fellow-countrymen. But then, owing to the very natural anxieties that are developed by the war, it is suddenly suggested that all these people, guilty or not guilty, are to be imprisoned—because internment, however softened it may be, is imprisonment. I cannot think that is a desirable course if it can possibly be avoided. It is the exact contrary to the ordinary principles of our criminal law. We say that nobody is guilty unless he is proved to be guilty; everyone is presumed to be innocent unless he is proved to be guilty. My noble friend's suggestion is that not only should that principle be reversed and every enemy alien be presumed to be guilty unless he can prove himself innocent, but even if he can prove himself innocent he is still to be interned. That does not seem to me to be a right course to adopt, and I cannot think it would be in the interests of this country that it should be adopted.
What, then, should be done? I think the policy indicated by the Government is the right policy: each case should be considered and dealt with on its merits. If we shut up all these people we shall destroy their work and their home life, separate husband from wife, father from children, inflict very great hardships indeed.
§ LORD MARCHWOODHardships have been inflicted on our own people.
§ VISCOUNT CECIL OF CHELWOODThese men may be, and mostly are, profoundly anxious to see the destruction of the Nazis. This seems to me a very rash and dangerous course to pursue. We do 880 not wish to have even an approach to the Nazi doctrine that everything that the State says is right and that the only rule of morality is obedience to the State. That cannot be right, and I hope we shall not have it. I feel rather strongly about this, and that is my sole excuse for intervening. I feel rather strongly, not only from pity for these men—because they are very pitiable—but also because it is frightfully difficult to imagine that people of this kind could do any harm. They are, generally speaking, very poor; they have come without a penny to this country; they can, for the most part, speak the language with difficulty; and to suggest that they are going to be a great centre of danger to our Army, Navy and Air Force seems to me a very extravagant proposition. It is not only that. I believe profoundly—I will not enlarge on it, because there is shortly going to be a debate on foreign affairs, when it will be more appropriate—that one of the great assets, perhaps the greatest asset we have, is the belief in the honesty and justice of the Government of this country that is spread throughout the world. That is what makes so many people, particularly in America, come to our assistance and offer their sympathy for what we are doing. Do not let us cut down that immense asset for a fancied danger—because I believe that in the main it is a fancied danger, and the influence of war hysteria has driven so many people on so many occasions to grave acts of injustice. I might have developed this theme much longer, but I will not detain your Lordships further.
I should like to make only one other suggestion for the consideration of the Government. I think there is great confusion in the administration of the refugee problem. I cannot go into that matter now, but I ask the Government to consider whether they are quite satisfied that they have the best Ministerial machinery for dealing with it. Is it not time to have a separate Minister to deal with these questions, so that we shall not be driven, perhaps, first to the War Office, then to the Ministry of Home Security, and then to the Ministry of Labour before we can get any particular case dealt with? I hope that the Government will consider carefully whether something of that kind would not improve the administration of this question.