HL Deb 09 July 1935 vol 98 cc163-87

Legislative Assemblies.

4. In the Legislative Assembly of each Province specified in the first column of the Table of Seats there shall be the number of seats specified in the second column opposite to that Province, and of those seats—

  1. (i) the number specified in the third column shall be general seats of which the number specified in the fourth column shall be reserved for members of the Scheduled Castes and, in time case of Bombay, seven shall be reserved for Marathas;
  2. (ii) the numbers specified in the next ten columns shall be the numbers of seats to be filled by persons chosen to represent respectively—(a) backward areas and backward tribes; (b) the Sikh community; (c) the Mahomedan community; (d) the Anglo-Indian community; (e) the European community; (f) the Indian-Christian community; (g) the interests of commerce, industry, mining and planting; (h) landholders; (i) universities; and (j) the interests of labour; and

5. A Province, exclusive of any portion thereof which His Majesty in Council may deem unsuitable for inclusion in any constituency or in any constituency of any particular class, shall be divided into territorial constituencies—

  1. (i) for the election of persons to fill the general seats;
  2. (ii) for the election of persons to fill the Sikh seats, if any;
  3. (iii) for the election of persons to fill the Mahomedan seats;
  4. (iv) for the election of persons to fill the Anglo-Indian seats, if any;
  5. (v) for the election of persons to fill the European seats, if any; and
  6. (vi) except in the case of Bihar, for the election of persons to fill the Indian-Christian seats, if any; or, if as respects any class of constituency it is so prescribed, may form one territorial constituency.

In the case of each such class of constituency as aforesaid the total number of seats available shall lie distributed between the constituencies by the assignment of one or more of those seats to each constituency.

LORD STRABOLGI moved, in paragraph 4 (ii), to leave out "(b) the Sikh community; (c) the Mahomedan community." The noble Lord said: This Amendment raises the question of the communal system of elections. I do not want to argue the case for the Amendment at length at this time of night, but I must take the opportunity of making one protest in Committee—as I did indeed on the Second Reading, but the Secretary of State was unable to reply (about which I make no complaint at all)—against this whole system of the Communal Award. The first observation I would submit to your Lordships is to ask you to notice, with regard to the intricate provisions for representation of the Indian States in the Council and in the Assembly—and the same principle, of course, applies to the Provinces we now have under discussion—that there is no mention of communal representatives. Where British India is concerned there are provisions reserving so many seats for Moslems, so many for Sikhs, so many for Hindus, etc., but with regard to the Indian States, which form one-third of the total area of India and contain about one-quarter of the population, if you leave out Burma, there is not one word about communal representation.

Observe that in the case of the largest State, Hyderabad, that State will have five members of the Council and sixteen members of the Assembly. There you have a State, with a predominantly Hindu population, governed by a Mahomedan dynasty. One would have thought, if this Communal Award was so necessary to get this Bill through, or indeed to have any kind of assent in India—we were told it was necessary for the then Prime Minister in August, 1932, to meddle in this hell's kitchen, which is what it is—that there would have been some provision made for communal representation from the States. But here you have Hyderabad, and as far as the Bill is concerned every one of these twenty-one representatives may be Moslems. In practice the matter does not arise, because only in recent years has there been any communal disturbance in the State at all. Similarly with regard to Kashmir, which is a predominantly Moslem State ruled by a Hindu ruling house. Kashmir is entitled to send three representatives to the Council and four to the Assembly. As regards the Bill all these seven representatives of the State of Kashmir may be Hindus, to represent an overwhelming Moslem population. But, in practice, we know perfectly well that the representatives sent from Hyderabad, Kashmir, Mysore, and the other States, with multiple representation will represent the population of the States as a whole. That should have been the case with British India.

I speak with int.ch diffidence in the presence of so many great experts in your Lordships' House on recent Indian history, but I believe I am right in saying that the communal differences, about which we hear so much now, were not very noticeable before the Montagu-Chelmsford reforms, and that, as has been described to me and to other noble Lords many times, when we were seeking to find an explanation, they have been made more acute by the scramble for loaves and fishes—in other words, by the competition for offices and places and jobs and posts, whether for the principals themselves or for their nephews and cousins and other relations; and that that is the real explanation beneath the communal troubles. If that is the case—and it seems to be generally accepted—what becomes of this intense religious feeling? The intense religious feeling may be felt by the masses, but it is exploited and taken advantage of by self-seeking politicians. We have surrendered to this, we have given way to it, and this alone condemns the Bill in my eyes.

If my casting vote could destroy this Bill, I would vote against it for that reason, because you are perpetuating this terrible rift in the democratic life of India, which I believe will be permanent. We were told it was necessary to make this Award by the former Prime Minister, now Lord President of the Council, Mr. Ramsay MacDonald, in August, 1932, because the different communities could not agree among themselves as to the fractional proportion of seats they were to have in these Provincial Legislatures we are now discussing. Was there any reason at all why we should give way to that kind of pressure? If they could not agree, was it for us to impose this division upon them, this which I am afraid will be a permanent division? I am speaking with the greatest seriousness. Could we not have told them to come back to us when they had agreed? Could we not, above all, have insisted on the common electoral roll?

On the Second Reading I took it upon myself to question a remark of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State—I question any remark of his on India with the greatest reluctance and hesitation—when he said this was the only protection for minorities. I ventured to show then that, as your Lordships well know, in the case of countries where there is a common electoral roll, minorities are taken care of by the majority because of their voting power and because of the general decency of public life. Jewish and Catholic minorities are well looked after in this country, not because they have separate representation as Catholics or Jews in the House of Commons, but because Members naturally look after their own constituents once they are elected. The same thing, we believe, would happen in India. I do not want to dwell on this matter at great length at this time of night. I would only point out that there is a most welcome movement in India amongst the younger men against this exploitation of communal feeling for political ends. Young Moslems, young Parsees and young Hindus are beginning to come together in the ranks of Congress and other political bodies. There is, I am informed, not much communal difference or feeling in the trades unions.

Where Labour has began to be organised in India—organised, I am sorry to say, against much opposition from Government—where trades unionism has made headway, there is no communal feeling. They act together as workmen seeking to improve their material lot. I am afraid that the explanation in years to come of why this crime was committed—I am not using hasty language, I am using language most deliberately—why we have given way to this claim of the Sikhs and the Moslems and others who demand separate representation is that we have harked back to the old system of "Divide and rule." You have been weak in this matter because you thought to base future Government on a minority of Moslems and, in one Province, of Sikhs. I think it will be proved in years to come a very great blunder. I have made my protest against this, and I have done it in the way open to me by putting an amendment on the Paper. I have made my protest with a very great feeling of sincerity in the matter. I think a very short-sighted view of the future of India has been taken in this whole system of communal representation as embodied in the Bill, both with regard to Provincial Legislatures and in the arrangements for electing the Councils. It is against the best interests of India, and therefore of this country, and for that reason I protest.

Amendment moved— Page 319, line 13, leave out from ("tribes") to ("d") in line, 14.—(Lord Strabolgi.)

VISCOUNT HALIFAX

I could wish that the noble Lord who has just sat down had contented himself with the earlier part of his speech, and had refrained from using the language that fell from him towards the end of it. I can imagine nothing more mischievous and more dangerous than that there should be transmitted to India that in his judgment it is the considered policy of Parliament and Government in this country that Government in India should pursue the policy of "Divide and rule." He used those words at a moment when he ought to know of the most tense and anxious position in the capital of the Punjab Provinces, and when he ought also to know that every district officer up and down India who is ever faced with communal anxieties would give anything he possessed to be able to allay the communal tension and so get rid of his greatest anxiety. I am certain the noble Marquess opposite, and anyone who has had the honour of serving in India, will regret profoundly that the noble Lord should have thought it wise to give his authority to a statement to which one is not unaccustomed from irresponsible quarters in India, but, luckily, unaccustomed from responsible quarters in this House.

The noble Lord spoke of communal electorates with a great warmth of condemnation, in regard to which he is, of course, quite entitled to hold any opinion that he likes. He has said a great deal about them. There would be, if I wished to detain your Lordships, a great deal more that might be said on the other side which would, I think, put the whole question in more true perspective, but I am bound to make plain, what, indeed, no doubt is plain to all your Lordships, that it is no new proposal of this Bill to establish communal electorates. They have been in existence for a great many years past, and all your Lordships are perfectly well aware, I doubt not, of the reasons that were held first by Lord Minto and ever since, to compel their recognition. It is significant, surely, that any bodies that have examined this problem over the whole of the last seven years—the Simon Commission, the Government of India of that day, the Round-Table Conferences, the Joint Select Committee—have all recognised that, whatever might be their personal opinions, and many members of them shared the opinion that is held by the noble Lord, communal electorates must only and can only go by the consent of the communities affected.

I am not concerned here to argue whether or not the present Lord President of the Council and the Government of that day was justified or compelled to assume the responsibility of issuing the Communal Award. I think, if he will allow me to say so, the noble Lord was a little ungenerous in not recognising that, without such an assumption of responsibility, further constitutional progress would in fact have proved impossible. But that is a matter of history that both he and I at this stage are quite powerless to change, and those of us who were in the House yesterday and who heard the concern with which many of my noble friends contemplated what they wrongly, as I think, conceived to be a possible violation of the sanctity of the Communal Award, will be with me and with His Majesty's Government, in asserting, if it needs asserting, that there can at this stage be no question. of altering the Communal Award and—this is fundamental—since that is what the noble Lord would contemplate, we may regret it or we may not but as practical politicians we have to face the facts, and for that reason and refraining from entering into those wider powers of controversy upon which the noble Lord would perhaps think it so important to embark, I must ask the Committee not to accept his Amendment.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

May I add one word to what the noble Lord has said in view of what the noble Lord, Lord Strabolgi, has said about the Communal Award? I was a member of the Round-Table Conference from the beginning, and I know by experience the supreme efforts which were made by the then Prime Minister, who was then the Leader of his Party, and by other members of his Party, to try to avoid the perpetuation of the system of the common electorate. I remember very well the endless sessions of the Committee appointed to deal with the matter, sessions which took place during the Second Round-Table Conference under the presidency of Mr. Gandhi himself, when it proved impossible to reach any agreement. Therefore the Government was faced either with suspending all constitutional advance or continuing a system which it found to be the basis of the existing Constitution. I think, therefore, that there is no foundation whatever for the view that the appearance of the communal system, the separate electorate, in this Bill is due to any ulterior motive on the part of any of the Governments of this country who have had anything to do with it. It is inherent in the situation, admittedly regrettable, in India itself, which has been in existence for the last twenty years.

LORD STRABOLGI

I do not want to press the point. I think that both the noble Marquess, the Secretary of State for War, and the noble Marquess on the Liberal Benches have given my words a rather stronger emphasis than I meant. What I meant was that perhaps that memory of our old policy in the past suggests that we are not quite strong enough in forcing a common electoral roll on to those delegates. I can quite bear out what the noble Marquess has said about the First Round-Table Conference. I remember then the tremendous fight about two Sikh seats in the Punjab; it held things up for weeks. I should have liked to support the broad-minded Hindus and the handful of broad-minded Moslems who wanted to have a common electoral roll. I should have liked to hold the thing up for two or three years more until we got the common electoral roll. I entirely accept what the noble Viscount said, that we ought not to cling to this remnant of the past, which colours our policy.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN moved, in paragraph 5, at the end, to insert: "In any territorial constituency to which more than one seat is assigned each voter shall exercise one vote only." The noble Marquess said: This is an Amendment which I hesitate to bring before your Lordships at this late hour, because it brings up what has been a matter of endless discussion; the technical method of election. On the other hand, it goes very deep into the possibilities of election in India itself. We have all had experience in this country and in other countries—I need not go into details—of the effect of the single vote in a single constituency producing a. Legislature which is quite unrepresentative of the main elements of public opinion in the country. I am not suggesting for one moment that it is possible or desirable at this stage to introduce proportional representation into the ordinary elections in India to-day. But you have under the Bill proposals whereby in a certain number of constituencies there will be multi-member constituencies; that is to say, the constituencies will elect anything from one to four members. I venture to think that it is highly desirable that the Government should give consideration whether it is possible to prescribe in this Bill that a system should be adopted to secure the representation of large minorities, or the possibility of their receiving representation, in multimember constituencies.

Under the more usual practice of the block vote—that is to say, that each voter casts as many votes as there are candidates for election—it means that if there is a majority party they carry all the seats, even though they may have only a small majority in the constituency. Perhaps for that reason it was arranged in the Poona Pact that in the primary election in which the candidates of the Depressed Classes were standing, the method by which they would be selected is by the effect of the single vote and the effect of the single vote is to make it possible for a constituency in which there is a very considerable minority—say 2,000 out of 6,000—to return one member. I do not know whether the Government will agree to put this into the Bill, but if they feel some difficulty I venture to suggest that they should put this as a definite instruction to the Delimitation Committee to consider very seriously the advantages of this system.

Amendment moved— Page 319, line 45, at end insert: ("In any territorial constituency to which more than one seat is assigned, each voter shall exercise one vote only").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I confess I have always been a good deal attracted by this method of voting. It would of course involve, as the noble Marquess has said, plural constituencies, and on that ground there are some objections to it in the case of India.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

I am not suggesting that this Bill should make any more plural constituencies than are in existence.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I am sorry I misunderstood the noble Marquess. As I have said, I have been much attracted to this system of voting, but at this stage I should be rather unwilling, I think, actually to insert these words in the Bill itself. I quite agree with the noble Marquess that it is a matter which might very suitably be submitted to the Delimitation Committee as one of the matters which they might investigate under their terms of reference. If that was done the noble Marquess and indeed your Lordships generally would have an opportunity of considering the matter at greater leisure when the recommendations of the Delimitation Committee were brought up, as they must be brought up, by Order in Council, for the consent of Parliament. If the noble Marquess would be satisfied with that I would ask him to withdraw his Amendment on that condition.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

Then it would be an instruction to the Committee from the India Office to consider this proposal?

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

Yes.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

On that understanding I am glad to withdraw my Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN moved, in the Table of Seats for Provincial Legislative Assemblies, to substitute "77" for "78" as the total of general seats for Bengal. The noble Marquess said: This, and subsequent Amendments, are quite simply a further attempt to give a little more representation to women. If your Lordships turn to page 324 of the Bill, which sets forth the exact representation of various classes of the communities in the Provincial Assemblies, you find a curious discrepancy. In the case of Madras, which has a total of 215 seats, eight seats are reserved for women. In Bombay, with only 175 seats, six seats are reserved for women. In Bengal, with 250 members, only five seats are reserved for women. If there is one Province in India in which I think it is important that women should be directly represented in the Legislature it is in the Province of Bengal; where social conditions are exceedingly difficult it is more important that you should have a certain number of women in the Legislature than anywhere else. Therefore the effect of my first Amendment is that there should be one seat added for a Hindu and one for a Moslem, so that out of 250 seats there should be seven women where there are only five. In view of the sympathy expressed by the noble Viscount yesterday in response to the appeal of the most reverend Primate, I hope that the noble Marquess will give favourable consideration to this proposal.

The second Amendment really affects Assam, where in a Legislature of 180 it is proposed only to reserve one seat for a woman. I remember well the pathetic evidence of the Assam Provincial Committee in which one member somewhat exaggeratedly alleged that there was only one woman in Assam suitable for representing it in the Legislature. That was an exaggeration, but I think your Lordships will realise that it is an extremely difficult position to put a single woman to sit alone in a Legislature of 180 men.

Amendment moved— Page 324, line 324, column 3, leave out ("78") and insert ("77").—(The Marquess of Lothian.)

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE

I desire on behalf of the Opposition to support the Amendment. The noble Marquess in charge of the Bill may not find this particular method of increasing the representation of women one that he would approve of, but I hope, in view of the sympathy shown on this question by the Government the other day, that they will be prepared to make some concession. My noble friend Lord Snell would certainly have supported it had he been here, and I can only endorse what he said the other day on this question, which I think is not one of detail but really of fundamental importance.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The noble Marquess is a most gallant and persistent supporter of the ladies, and I admire greatly the consistency with which he has constantly urged their further representation. With regard to Bengal, it would, I am afraid, meet with very considerable opposition from the community in that Province which happens to be in the majority, and which does not always take the same view of the advantages of women in public life as the noble Marquess does. But all these figures which are delicately balanced have been worked out very carefully and in constant consultation with the local Governments, and I should really be rather averse at this stage from accept ing an Amendment of this kind. So far as Bengal is concerned, I am afraid I should be very unwilling, but if the noble Marquess wishes to press me very hard with regard to Assam, I would enter into further consultation with the Government of Assam, where I think perhaps popular feeling would not be quite so strong as in Bengal, with a view to seeing whether they would be willing to agree to the alteration proposed by the noble Marquess. I am afraid that he will not regard that answer as very satisfactory, but I have done my best.

THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN

I am very glad to accept the noble Marquess's suggestion. If he will press, with that fervour which I believe he really feels, the position of the single woman on the Assam Legislature, I think they would give way. I beg leave to withdraw.

Amendment, by leave withdrawn.

LORD CHARNWOOD had given Notice that he would move to reduce from "30" to "10" the number of seats reserved for the Scheduled Castes in the Bengal Legislative Assembly.

LORD RANKEILLOUR

If it were not for the sight of the clock, I would gladly move this Amendment on behalf of my noble friend, because this raises the whole question of the Poona Pact, and it is really far too important to embark on at this time of night. I think it only fair to say, however, to the noble Marquess, with a slight adaptation of the usual caution that is given, that anything he has said may be used against him on Report.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

May I retort to the noble Lord that that might apply to him also? I understood that the noble Lord yesterday would have been horrified at any suggestion being made that the pledge contained in the Communal Award might be altered. Now the noble Lord comes down and actually proposes an alteration of this solemn pledge!

LORD RANKEILLOUR

May I say to the noble Marquess that if he will study this Amendment he will find that it seeks to restore the Communal Award as it was.

Fifth Schedule agreed to.

Sixth Schedule [Provisions as to franchise]

LORD RANKEILLOUR

I assure noble Lords that this will be my last utterance to-night. I suggest that the Schedule be postponed merely in order to elicit some information from the Government. It may be awkward to take this Schedule before the First Schedule is discussed. It is quite true that this refers to Provincial constituencies, but the first words talk about territorial constituencies and so on, and I suggest it may run counter to something that may be done under the First Schedule. This is a very strange Schedule, because as far as I have been able to discover, there are no words in any of the main clauses of the Bill setting up this Schedule at all. I have looked through the Bill, and cannot find any such words. In the case of the other Schedules, there are clauses setting them up in so many words, and I would ask the noble Marquess to say what words set up this Schedule.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I would ask the noble Lord whether it is really necessary that there should be a parent or god-parent for a Schedule?

LORD RANKEILLOUR

So I have always understood.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The noble Lord is a much greater authority on these matters than I am, but I certainly was not aware myself that it was necessary that a Schedule should be set up by a particular clause. Perhaps I might shorten discussion if I were to give a brief explanation of the object of these various Amendments to the Sixth Schedule. Apart from two Amendments relating to matters of local detail in Oudh and Bihar, the remainder of the Amendments relate to the following points. First of all, the removal of the necessity for application by a woman for inclusion in an electoral roll in virtue of her husband's qualification after the first election. Secondly, the omission in a number of places of the references to the franchise qualification and the police. It is not necessary, in view of the terms of paragraph 12, which will be found upon page 328, of Part I of the Schedule, where the definition of "military" covers police, and a drafting change is proposed in a number of places to make clearer what is intended by the meaning of the words "preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act." These are not Amendments, I imagine, which will give rise to much, if any, discussion. I have explained the object of the Amendments, and I will move them seriatim if that is desired.

Amendment moved— Page 326, line 11, after the second ("time") insert ("in whole or in part").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to add to paragraph 12 of Part I: and a reference to an officer, non-commissioned officer or soldier of the Auxiliary Force (India) or the Indian Territorial Force, not being an officer, non-commissioned officer or soldier who has been dismissed or discharged from the force for disciplinary reasons, or has served in the force for less than four years".

The noble Marquess said: I may point out that this Amendment is moved to carry out an undertaking given in another place.

Amendment moved— Page 328, line 13, at end insert the said words.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I have already explained the next two Amendmerits. I beg to move.

Amendments moved— Page 330, line 30, after ("Act") insert ("1908"). Page 332, line 1, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 3.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD PONSONBY OF SHULBREDE moved, in paragraph 10 of Part II after "five," to insert "or"; after "six" leave out "or paragraph eight" The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Snell I beg to move the Amendment standing in his name. As the noble Marquess in charge of the Bill will realise, the purpose of this Amendment is to exempt women where qualified for the vote from having to make a special application in the prescribed manner. I am not quite sure if in the Amendments moved by the noble Marquess just now he referred to certain women who would be exempted and this Amendment really is an attempt to exempt all women from the need of having to make special application. I am not quite sure whether the noble Marquess on a previous occasion did not express himself favourably towards this and I hope he may now accept the Amendment that I move.

Amendment moved— Page 333, line 4, after ("five") insert ("or"); after ("six") leave out ("or paragraph eight").—(Lord Ponsonby of Shulbrede.)

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

I think the Amendment which I have already moved substantially meets the point of the noble Lord. I do not say that it does so altogether, but it does provide that in those Provinces where there is no social difficulty in connection with the registration of women the wishes of the noble Lord will be met after the first election, and if the noble Lord is satisfied with that I would be very glad if he would withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

The rest of the Amendments on pages 20, 21, 22 and 23 to the Sixth Schedule, all in the name of the noble Marquess, Lord Zetland, if he has already dealt with them in his speech, I will, if your Lordships will allow me, put them en bloc.

NOBLE LORDS

Hear, hear.

Amendments moved— Page 333, line 8, at end insert: ("Provided that except in relation to the original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act, this paragraph shall, as respects women qualified by virtue of their husbands' qualifications, have effect only where the husband's qualification is that mentioned in sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph nine of this Part of this Schedule.") Page 336, line 14, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 16. Page. 338, line 15, at end insert: ("Provided that except in relation to the original preparation electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act, this paragraph shall, in relation to women qualified by virtue of their husbands' qualifications, have effect only where the husband's qualification is that mentioned in sub-paragraph (b) of paragraph seven of this Part of this Schedule.") Page 341, line 20, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act") Page 344, line 37, at end insert: ("(d) is an under-proprietor in Oudh of land in the constituency in respect of which under-proprietary rent of not less than five rupees per annum is payable; or") Page 345, line 11, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 13. Page 346, leave out lines 29 to 44 and insert: ("10.—(1) No person shall by virtue of paragraph five of sub-paragraph (a) or subparagraph (b) of paragraph eight of this Part of this Schedule, or by virtue of her husband being a retired, pensioned or discharged officer, non-commissioned officer or soldier, be included in. the electoral roll for any territorial constituency unless application is made in the prescribed manner by, or if it is so prescribed, on behalf of, that person, that that person should be so included. (2) On the preparation of the original electoral roll for any rural constituency or on any revision of the electoral roll for a rural constituency within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act, no person shall by virtue of her husband possessing any of the other qualifications requisite for the purposes of the said paragraph eight be included in the electoral roll unless application is made in the prescribed manner by her, or if it is so prescribed, on her behalf, that she should be so included.") Page 347, line 8, at end insert ("under-proprietor' means an under-proprietor as defined in the Oudh Rent Act, 1886.") Page 349, line 10, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 12. Page 353, line 1, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions hereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act ") Page 353, line 19, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act ") Page 353, line 34, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 36. Page 354, line 4, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act ") Page 356, line 38, leave out ("shown") and insert ("proved") Page 357, line 1, leave out ("accepted by the Provincial Government") and insert ("prescribed") Page 357, leave out lines 10 and 11. Page 357, line 16, after ("Hyderabad") insert ("or a retired, pensioned or discharged officer or man of the Hyderabad State Police") Page 357, line 27, at end insert: (" (2) Subject as aforesaid, a person who is a woman shall also be qualified to be included in the electoral roll for any territorial constituency in Berar if she is the pensioned widow or pensioned mother of a person who was an officer, non-commissioned officer or soldier of the regular forces of His Exalted Highness the Nizam of Hyderabad or an officer or man of the Hyderabad State Police.") Page 358, line 16, at end insert ("or a retired pensioned or discharged officer or man of the Hyderabad State Police ") Page 358, line 23, leave out from ("four") to ("be") in line 27 and insert ("of this Part of this Schedule or by virtue of being a pensioned widow or mother, or of being literate or the holder of a primary school certificate, or of being the wife of an officer, non-commissioned officer, soldier or man of any force,") Page 360, line 2, leave out ("cantonment or railway settlement") and insert ("or cantonment") Page 360, line 4, at end insert ("and any prescribed railway settlements") Page 360, line 29, at end insert: (" (5) Any reference in this Part of this Schedule to a retired, pensioned or discharged officer or man of the Hyderabad State Police shall be deemed not to include a reference to any person who has been dismissed or discharged from the police for disciplinary reasons.") Page 362, line 3, leave out from ("Rifles") to the end of line 4. Page 363, line 6, at end insert: ("Provided that except in relation to the original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act, this paragraph shall, in relation to women qualified by virtue of their husbands' qualifications have effect only where the husband's qualification is that mentioned in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph seven of this Part of this Schedule.") Page 366, line 5, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 7, Page 366, line 17, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act") Page 369, line 21, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 23. Page 369, line 37, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act") Page 370, line 10, leave out ("preparation of the first electoral rolls under this Act") and insert ("original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act") Page 371, line 19, at end insert: ("Provided that, in relation to the original preparation of electoral rolls and revisions thereof within three years from the commencement of Part III of this Act, this paragraph shall have effect as if for the references in sub-paragraph (a) thereof to one rupee and one anna there were substituted respectively references to two rupees and two annas") Page 374, line 27, leave out from ("forces") to the end of line 28. Page, 376, line 24, leave out ("In this Part of this Schedule") and insert ("In this Schedule, in relation to Sind").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Sixth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Seventh Schedule [Legislative Lists]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, in paragraph 1 of List I after "Governments", to insert "any armed forces which are not forces of His Majesty but are attached to or operating with any of His Majesty's naval, military or air forces borne on the Indian establishment." The noble Marquess said: Item 1 of List I, which is descriptive of part of the content of the subject compendiously known as Defence, as at present drafted relates only to His Majesty's forces and other armed forces raised in India by the Crown. It is, however, necessary to include in the forces over which the Federation is to have control any contingents which, by arrangement with neighbouring countries, for example, Nepal, may be lent to the Federation for the purposes of defence, as was the case in the War.

Amendment moved— Page 377, line 9, after ("Governments") insert ("any armed forces which are not forces of His Majesty but are attached to or operating with any of His Majesty's naval, military or air forces borne on the Indian establishment ").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The next four Amendments are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 377, line 32, after ("Federation") insert (" (not being naval, military or air force works) ") Page 377, line 34, at end insert ("and as regards property in a Federated State held by virtue of any lease or agreement with that State, subject to the terms of that lease or agreement") Page 378, line 23, leave out ("terminals") and insert ("terminal charges") Page 379, line 18, after ("corporations") insert ("whether trading or not").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

LORD STRABOLGI moved, in paragraph 35 of List 1, which reads "Regulation of labour in mines; safety in mines and oilfields," to leave out all words after "regulation of labour" to the end of the paragraph and insert "and safety in mines, quarries and oilfields." The noble Lord said: On behalf of my noble friend Lord Marley I beg to move this Amendment, which is to include quarries with mines and oilfields as Federal subjects. In another place this was debated on May 30 and in column 1398 of the OFFICIAL REPORT it is recorded that the learned Solicitor-General said: "I will certainly have that point looked into." Again, at column 1400, the Solicitor-General is reported as saying: "I have already said that we will look into what is really the drafting point, and, on the general question, we will certainly reconsider quarries." He went on to make some reservations about the number of small quarries and then said: The coal mines in this country are disposed together in districts, whereas ordinary quarries are scattered up and down every field in the country. We will certainly look into the matter but that is the difficulty which led us to omit quarries. There the matter rested.

Apparently there was a congestion of business at the end of the consideration of the Bill and no final decision was taken. Therefore my noble friend put down this Amendment to give the Government the opportunity of carrying out the Solicitor-General's obvious intention. The case does not need arguing. Coal in India is quarried in some cases, I understand, and I think it will be generally agreed if mines and oilfields are Federal subjects as regard labour regulations that should apply also to quarries. To the objection that some Provinces, if left to themselves, might be more progressive than the Federation, the answer is that local opinion in any Province, if strong enough, can insist on more advanced local regulations.

Amendment moved.— Page 379, line 22, leave out from ("labour") to the end of the paragraph and insert ("and safety in mines, quarries and oilfields").—(Lord Strabolgi.)

VISCOUNT HALIFAX

My noble friend is much obliged to the noble Lord for bringing forward this matter. He will see that if the next Amendment in the name of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State is accepted item 35 of List I would read: Regulation of labour and safety in mines and oilfields. If the Amendment moved by the noble Lord is accepted it would read: Regulation of labour and safety in mines, quarries and oilfields. I think substantially the point made in another place by members of the Party to which the noble Lord belongs is met by the Amendment in the name of the noble Marquess. If, as the noble Lord says, coal is in fact extracted from quarries, then those quarries come within the operation of the Indian Mines Act and rank as mines. Therefore it only leaves in dispute small quarries which may be found in every field which it would be practically impossible I am assured to bring under Federal authority. Therefore I hope the noble Lord opposite will feel that we have done our best to secure and safeguard the main point about which I think his friends are concerned, and will be content to allow his Amendment to be withdrawn and to accept the Amendment which stands in the name of my noble friend.

LORD STRABOLGI

Yes, certainly.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment moved— Page 379, line 22, leave out ("in mines") and insert ("and").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, in paragraph 37, after "insurance," to insert "except as respects insurance undertaken by a Federated State." The noble Marquess said: These two Amendments to paragraph 37 go together. They make it plain that the entry has no application at all to any insurance carried on by a State Government itself. There seems to be very strong reason for enabling the Federal Legislature to regulate this kind of activity, which will obviously have no effect outside the State and which is not, and probably never will be, very widespread. Probably if the entry were left at it stands, many States would desire to make reservations when they were acceding to the Federation.

Amendment moved— . Page 379, line 28, after ("insurance") insert ("except as respects insurance undertaken by a Federated State").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendment moved— Page 379, line 29, after ("business") insert ("except as respects business undertaken by a Federated State").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

VISCOUNT HALIFAX moved to insert the following new paragraph: 41. The salaries of the Federal Ministers, of the President and Vice-President of the Council of State and of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the Federal Assembly; the salaries, allowances and privileges of the members of the Federal Legislature; and, to such extent as is expressly authorised by Part II of this Act, the punishment of persons who refuse to give evidence or produce documents before Committees of the Legislature.

The noble Viscount said: This Amendment and the next three go together. The first three supplement the entries in List 1 and the third adds an entry in List 2. The only purpose of all these additions to these two lists of legislative powers is to include in them a description of certain powers that have been conferred by specific sections of the Bill, with which perhaps it is unnecessary to trouble your Lordships as they are technical. So far as that goes, these Amendments may be termed partly consequential, but the insertion of these entries in the lists has on the whole been thought desirable; partly in case it might be contended that, as the lists purport to be a complete enumeration of the legislative powers of the Federal and Provincial Legislatures respectively, there would be a conflict between the lists and the sections referred to if there were no corresponding entry in the lists to fit the sections; and partly because difficulties might arise in relation to the States if they were not enabled to accept alterations made in these classes as applying to themselves.

Amendment moved— Page 380, line 3, at end, insert the said paragraph.—(Viscount Halifax.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved, to leave out paragraph 51 of List 1: "Regulation of the working of mines, but not including mineral development." The noble Marquess said: This is an Amendment to omit item 51 in List 1. It has been pointed out to us that, as the result of entries 35 and 36 as amended in another place, entry 51 has now become in one sense inconsistent with these entries, and in another sense redundant. In those circumstances it seems to me very desirable to get rid of it.

Amendment moved— Page 380, leave out lines 24 and 25.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Amendments moved— Page 380, line 28, at end insert ("and, to such extent as is expressly authorised by Part IX of this Act, the enlargement of the appellate jurisdiction of the Federal Court, and the conferring thereon of supplemental powers") Page 381, line 31, at end insert: ("12. The salaries of the Provincial Ministers, of the Speaker and Deputy Speaker of the Legislative Assembly, and, if there is a Legislative Council, of the President and Deputy President thereof; the salaries, allowances and privileges of the members of the Provincial Legislature; and, to such extent as is expressly authorised by Part III of this Act, the punishment of persons who refuse to give evidence or produce documents before Committees of the Provincial Legislature.")—(Viscount Halifax.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

This is drafting.

Amendment moved— Page 385, line 22, after ("labour") insert ("conditions of labour").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Seventh Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Eighth Schedule agreed to.

Ninth Schedule [Provisions of Government of India Act continued in force with Amendments until the establishment of the Federation]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

This Amendment is really consequential upon an Amendment made to Clause 309.

Amendment moved— Page 394, line 29, at end insert: (" (vii) Expenditure of the Governor-General in discharging his functions as respects matters with respect to which he is required by the provisions of the Govern ment of India Act, 1935, for the time being in force to act in his discretion;").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Ninth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Tenth Schedule [Provisions as to Governor of Burma:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

Consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 402, line 19 after ("shall") insert ("during, and in respect of, the peroid") Page 402, line 20, after ("powers") insert ("privileges and immunities").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Tenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Eleventh Schedule [Areas in Burma to which special provisions apply]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND moved to insert: (3) The Kyain township, the Myawaddy Circle of the Kawkareik township, and so much of the Karen Hill tracts situate in the eastern half of the Toungoo District and in the Thaton District as may be prescribed by His Majesty in Council.

The noble Marquess said: This Amendment is consequential upon correspondence with the Government of Burma in the course of which it has been agreed that the Karen hill tracts here specified should be partially excluded areas. The areas in question are all close to if not actually contiguous to the Salween district which also is populated by Hill Karens. They are very primitive folk, and the obviously correct course in the case of Salween where they form almost the entirety of the population is to make the whole district totally "excluded" It is not practicable to do more than exclude partially the comparatively small areas in the three neighbouring districts of Amherst, Toungoo and Thaton, the inhabitants of which are predominantly Hill Karens. The Hill Karen areas in the Amherst district coincide with the administrative areas mentioned by name at the beginning of the Amendment: in Toungoo and Thaton they do not and it will be necessary to specify nomination by Order in Council the villages which are to be "partially excluded.'

Amendment moved— Page 403, line 23, at end, insert the said paragraph.—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Eleventh Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Twelfth Schedule [Composition, of the Burma Legislature]:

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

These are drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 405, line 3, leave out from ("in") to the end of line 5 and insert ("the two last preceding paragraphs") Page 405, line 32, leave out (" (who shall not be persons holding office under the Crown) ").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The other Amendments are consequential.

Amendments moved— Page 406, leave out lines 16 to 18 and insert: (" (2) For the purposes of this paragraph: (a)where a firm has been assessed to Income Tax in Burma in any year, every partner in that firm shall be deemed to have been assessed to that tax in that year to an amount, to be certified in the prescribed manner, equal to his share in the firm's income on which the tax was so assessed; (b)where water rate is levied in addition to land revenue, payment thereof shall be treated as payment of land revenue.") Page 406, line 24, after ("is") insert ("or was") Page 406, line 28, after ("whose") insert ("other") Page 406, line 28, after ("is") insert ("or was").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Twelfth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Thirteenth Schedule [Provisions as to franchise in Burma.]

THE MARQUESS OF ZETLAND

The first and third Amendments are consequential and the second and fourth drafting.

Amendments moved— Page 408, line 25, after the second ("time") insert ("in whole or in part") Page 409, line 34, leave out ("if he") line 37, at end insert: (" (c) is a retired, pensioned or discharged officer, non-commissioned officer or soldier of the Auxiliary Force (India), the Indian Territorial Force, or any prescribed Burman auxiliary or territorial force, not being a person who has been dismissed or discharged from the force for disciplinary reasons or has served in the force for less than four years; or") Page 412, line 39, leave out ("constituencies other than general") and insert ("labour").—(The Marquess of Zetland.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Thirteenth Schedule, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining Schedules agreed to.

THE LORD CHAIRMAN

That concludes the Bill and Schedules, except the First Schedule, which should now be taken, unless—

THE MARQUESS OF LONDONDERRY

It is proposed that the First Schedule should be postponed and taken to-morrow.

House resumed.