HL Deb 09 July 1925 vol 61 cc1188-97

Order of the Day for the House to he put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Lord Danesfort.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 to 4 agreed to.

Clause 5.

Offences under the Act.

5. Any theatrical employer shall be guilty of an offence under this Act— (a) Who during the course of theatrical touring engagement abandons the theatrical performers; (e) Who on the hearing of any charge under this Act fails to produce to the court his certificate (if any) of registration without lawful excuse, or produces a false certificate.

LORD DANESFORT moved, in subsection (1) (a), to leave out "touring." The noble Lord said: The reason for this Amendment is this. It has been pointed out that the class of bogus managers against whom this Bill is directed includes those who engage theatrical performers not only for touring engagements but for what are called non-touring engagements. This Amendment has the approval of the authorised representatives of the managers on the one side and, on the other, of the performers. They agree that the Amendment is a right one.

Amendment moved— Page 2, line 32, leave out ("touring").—(Lord Danesfort.)

LORD DESBOROUGH

The Home Office is quite in favour of this Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in subsection (1) (e), to leave out "lawful" and to insert "reasonable." The noble Lord said: I must apologise for the number of Amendments which stand in my name, but the fact is that an ardent supporter of the Bill moved the Third Reading in another place after eleven o'clock, and while negotiations were going on with the Home Office. These Amendments would have been moved in another place, but for this somewhat premature action. With regard to this Amendment, your Lordships adopted a similar proposal in regard to the Performing Animals Act, considering that "reasonable" is a more appropriate word than "lawful."

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 7, leave out ("lawful") and insert ("reasonable").—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD DANESFORT

I accept the Amendment.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUCH moved, in subsection (1), to insert the following new paragraph:— ("(f) who being a company or a firm, of which any person whose registration has been cancelled or is suspended, is a director or manager, or by any other means has control, or is a partner, as the case may be, applies to be registered as a theatrical employer.") The noble Lord said: Clause 6 (1) (a) gives the Court power to order the certificate of any registered theatrical employer to be delivered up and the registration cancelled, but there is nothing to prevent a man whose registration has been so cancelled from forming himself into a company and applying for registration in the name of the company. This Amendment has been drafted in order to meet that point.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 8, at end insert the said new paragraph.—(Lord Desborough.)

LORD DANESFORT

With regard to this Amendment and to all the other Amendments in the name of the noble Lord, may I say, on behalf of the promoters of the Bill, that I am prepared to accept them, and in so doing I have the approval of the employers on the one side and the theatrical performers on the other.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 6:

Punishment for offences under the Act.

6.—(1) Any offence under this Act shall render the person committing the same liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds with or without imprisonment for a period not exceeding three months, and in addition to any other penalty the court may in its discretion:—

  1. (a) Order the certificate of any registered theatrical employer to be delivered up and the registration to be cancelled;
  2. (b) Order the certificate of any registered theatrical employer to be delivered up and the registration to be suspended for such a period as the court may deem meet;
  3. (c) Order the person convicted to pay the whole or any part of the costs of the prosecution.
Any person sheeted by an order made under this section may appeal against the order to a court of quarter sessions.

LORD DANESFORT moved, at the end of subsection (1), to insert "in the manner prescribed by the Summary Jurisdiction Acts." (2) An order made under this Act shall not come into force until seven days after it is made, or if an appeal has been entered within that period until the determination of the appeal. The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to give a person who is convicted before a court of summary jurisdiction under this Bill the opportunity of appealing to Quarter Sessions, as the Bill provides. The Amendment gives him seven days in which to make up his mind whether he will appeal or not, and if he does then the order of the magistrates does not become operative until the appeal has been disposed of. In a recent Bill before your Lordships, the Performing Animals Bill, an Amendment of this kind was introduced at the instance of the Home Office. In this case also I have the approval of the association of managers and the performers.

Amendment moved— Page 3, line 35, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Danesfort.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 6, as amended, agreed to.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, after Clause 6, to insert as a new clause: . Where a court of summary jurisdiction is satisfied that a theatrical employer has failed to pay any money due to be paid by him to theatrical performers, and that in the opinion of the court such failure was due to a deliberate intention on the part of the employer to avoid the terms of any contract made between him and the performers, the court may make an order under paragraph (a) or paragraph (b) of subsection (1) of Section six of this Act in respect of that employer.

The noble Lord said: This is to meet the case which was brought up in another place, where a manager will not pay fees which he ought to pay to those employed by him. It was suggested it should be made a criminal offence. The view of the Home Office is that it is unnecessary to make it a new criminal offence not to pay wages, and they think the situation would be met by the power to strike such a manager off the register.

Amendment moved— After Clause 6 insert the said new clause.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7:

Cancelled and suspended certificates.

7.—(1) Any registered theatrical employer whose registration has been ordered to be cancelled or suspended as aforesaid shall forthwith deliver up his certificate to the clerk of the court by which the order has been made, and the clerk of the court shall endorse the certificate with a record of the order for cancellation or suspension, as the case may be, and shall forward the said certificate so endorsed to the registration authority by which the said certificate was issued, and the said registration authority shall thereupon cause entry of such cancellation or suspension to be made in the register of theatrical employers, and in the case of suspension shall, when the period of suspension has expired, return the certificate to the employer at the address entered on the certificate, and in the case of cancellation shall retain the said certificate.

LORD DANESFORT moved, in subsection (1), after "shall," where that word secondly occurs, to insert "as soon as the order comes into force": The noble Lord said: This is merely a drafting Amendment, consequential upon the Amendment I proposed last.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 5, after ("shall") insert ("as soon as the order comes into force").—(Lord Danesfort.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

Certain convicted persons not to act as servants or agents for theatrical employers.

9. Any person whose registration as a theatrical employer is cancelled shall be guilty of an offence under this Act if at any time while he remains unregistered he acts as servant (except as a theatrical performer) of or as agent for a theatrical employer. For the purpose of this section a director or similar officer of a corporation shall be deemed to be a servant of such corporation.

LORD DESBOROUGH moved to leave out "servant (except as a theatrical performer) of or as," and to leave out "For the purpose of this section a director or similar officer of a corporation shall be deemed to be a servant of such corporation." The noble Lord said: The Bill as drafted is rather too stringent and would cause hardships to those who might otherwise be legitimately employed.

Amendments moved— Page 4, line 36, leave out ("servant (except as a theatrical performer) of or as"); Page 4, line 37, leave out from ("employer") to the end of the clause.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10:

Application.

10. This Act shall not apply— (a) To any person or corporation who, or whose agent, nominee or representative on his or its behalf, holds a licence to produce stage plays or a licence for music and dancing from any person or authority in Great Britain lawfully entitled to grant such a licence but only so long as such licence remains in force:

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, in paragraph (a), to omit "or corporation who, or whose agent, nominee or representative on his or its behalf, holds a licence to produce stage plays or a licence for music and dancing from any person or authority in Great Britain lawfully entitled to grant such a licence," and to insert "to whom, or to whose agent, a licence under section seven of the Theatres Act, 1843, or a licence for music and dancing has been granted." The noble Lord said: This is practically a drafting Amendment.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 41, leave out from ("person") to ("but") in page 5, line 3, and insert the said words.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD MONK BRETTON moved, at the end of paragraph (a), to insert "and only so far as relates to theatrical performers employed at the premises in respect of which such licence is granted." The noble Lord said: Clause 10 excludes from the operation of the Act a person holding a licence either to produce stage plays or a licence for music and dancing, who has obtained a licence from any person or authority in Great Britain that is lawfuly entitled to give it. If he has got it he escapes responsibility under the new Act. A bad theatrical manager might get a licence in some small place of entertainment from John o' Groats or Land's End, and, having got that licence, he might come to London and engage in those malpractices which this Bill is intended to prevent. It is with that object that this Amendment is framed to tie him down to the theatrical performers in the house where he gets a licence. What we want to prevent is evasion of the Act in the way I have described. It might be worth while for a man who is going to engage in these practices to have some sort of bogus house in some very small place in order to have his licence and get away from the Act.

I propose this Amendment at the instigation of the London County Council. There is no local authority in England which is more brought into touch with, and more cognisant of, some of the knaves who have to be dealt with under this Bill than the London County Council through its committees. They know a great deal about the matter, and I hope the noble Lord will accept this Amendment. I think he said on another Amendment that the Bill was very fully discussed in another place. Up to a point it was, but there are one or two points which were omitted. This matter was raised in the Standing Committee, and then, for some reason, it was not considered, nor was it considered on the Report stage, when it was expected that it would be considered. It is an Amendment of substance, and one which would make the noble Lord's Bill a more efficient instrument.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 4, at end insert the said words.—(Lord Monk Bretton.)

LORD DANESFORT

The noble Lord has very truly said that this Bill was very fully considered in the House of Commons in the interests of all parties concerned, and it comes up here, subject to the Amendments accepted by the Home Office, as a practically agreed Bill. I do not say that to suggest that your Lordships cannot amend it, but I do not think this Amendment is a right one. I cannot accept it, and I will tell the noble Lord why. There was a certain class of theatrical managers who were, by the consent of all parties, deliberately excluded from the obligations of the Bill, in other words, from the obligation to register themselves. Those were the persons who had obtained a licence, and the reason that they were excluded was that they would not obtain their licence unless they were persons of recognised responsibility, position and, I should add, respectability. It was on that ground, and on that ground only, that they were excluded, because the fact of their having a licence gave them, as it were, a certificate of responsibility. The noble Lords Amendment would entirely destroy the ground on which they were exempted.

Let me work it out. A man might get a licence to perform a play at the Hay-market. He would then be exempted from the operation of the Bill, but if he were to take a company to Hammersmith temporarily he would immediately have to go and register. Surely that is not reasonable. He has already got his certificate, as it were, of respectability, which already exempts him from registering, and it is suggested that because he engages a company elsewhere he should immediately have that privilege taken away from him. I ask your Lordships to say that this is not only an unnecessary but an improper Amendment, because it cuts into the principle deliberately accepted by all parties in the House of Commons—namely, that once a man gets his licence he must be considered sufficiently respectable to make it unnecessary for him to register, and on those grounds I hope your Lordships will not accept the Amendment. I say that with the fullest sympathy for its object, because I can assure my noble friend that those who promote this Bill, whether managers or employees, are most anxious to make it as strong as possible in order to remedy what we feel to be a grave evil, which has gone on for a long time, which has been the subject of grave comment in the papers and otherwise, and which affects most seriously the performers who are left abandoned, and most especially the girls and women who are left abandoned in some remote country town.

On Question, Amendment negatived.

Clause 10, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12:—

Interpretation.

12. In this Act unless the context otherwise requires— The expression "theatrical performer" includes any actor, singer, dancer, acrobat or performer of any kind employed to act, sing, dance, play or perform in any theatre, music hall or other place of public entertainment, or to rehearse with a view to so acting singing, dancing, playing or performing, as well as any person employed to take part in the acting or representation of any play, act, event or scene being photographed or otherwise recorded as a picture or pictures or other optical effect suitable or intended for being exhibited by means of a cinematograph or other similar apparatus; and the term theatrical performer shall include all persons employed or engaged for purposes of a chorus or crowd, but shall not include stage hands and members of an orchestra.

LORD RAGLAN moved to leave out "theatre, music hall, or other place of public entertainment," and to insert "public entertainment of a theatrical character." The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment is to exclude from the scope of this Bill such places of public entertainment as cricket and football grounds.

Amendment moved— Page 5, line 26, leave out ("theatre, music hall, or other place of public entertainment") and insert ("public entertainment of a theatrical character").—(Lord Raglan.)

LORD DANESFORT

I am afraid that I cannot possibly accept my noble friend's Amendment. I do not think that it is conceivable that any Court in existence would hold that Hobbs, or, shall we say, Holmes, or any of those honoured and familiar names would come under this Bill's definition of a theatrical performer, which runs as follows:— The expression theatrical performer' includes any actor, singer, dancer, acrobat or performer of any kind employed to act, sing, dance, play or perform in any theatre, music hall or other place of public entertainment… That is my reason for opposing the Amendment, and I give the noble Lord my positive assurance that no Court in this country would bring Hobbs or Holmes within the operation of this Bill.

LORD RAGLAN

Might I interrupt the noble Lord? If the Bill says that they are performers they will have to be performers.

LORD DANESFORT

Exactly, but the Bill does not say anything of the sort, and no Court could hold that the Bill brings these people in. With the words as they stand. I am quite positive that it could not do so. The definition of theatrical performer was very carefully considered in the House of Commons by representatives of both sides, and they agreed upon the words as they stand.

Let me tell my noble friend another and very serious objection to his Amendment, which makes it not only wholly unnecessary but, I think, positively mischievous. If this Amendment were carried, such persons as those who act in cinemas, in circuses, and possibly some others, would be deprived of the benefit of this Bill. I am sure that my noble friend does not want that to happen, but if his Amendment were carried there would be serious difficulties in bringing such people within the scope of the Bill. It is not proposed to exclude them, and accordingly I hope that my noble friend will not press his Amendment. In taking this view I believe that I shall have the support of the Home Office, who have gone into this matter very carefully. I hope that the Amendment will not be pressed.

LORD DESBOROUGH

So far as the Home Office is concerned, it is strongly opposed to my noble friend's Amendment. They think that it will make a very big loophole to the prejudice of the employees in the theatrical business, and I understand that it is also very strongly opposed by the profession itself.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 12 agreed to

LORD DESBOROUGH moved, after Clause 12, to insert as a new clause:

Application to Scotland.

". This Act shall apply to Scotland, subject to the following modifications—

  1. (1) The expression 'county borough' shall mean a burgh having according to the census of nineteen hundred and twenty-one a population of or exceeding fifty thousand, and all oilier burghs shall for the, purposes of this Act be deemed to be within the county:
  2. (2) The expenses incurred by a town or county council under this Act shall, so far as not met out of fees, be defrayed in the case of a town council out of the burgh genera] or police assessment and in the case of a county council out of the general purposes rate, provided that with respect to every burgh, which is for the purposes of this Act deemed to be within the county, subsections (3) and (4) of Section sixty and Section sixty-six of the Local Government (Scotland) Act. 1989, shall, so far as applicable, have effect as if such expenses were expenditure therein mentioned:
  3. (3) The expression 'court of summary jurisdiction shall mean the sheriff, and the provisions regarding appeal to a court of quarter sessions shall not apply:
  4. (4) The expression 'a licence for music and dancing' shall mean a licence granted under Section three hundred and ninety-five of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1899."
The noble Lord said: These words are merely formal and are the usual method of applying a Bill to Scotland.

Amendment moved— Page 6, line 2, at end insert the said new clause.—(Lord Desborough.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Remaining clause agreed to.