HL Deb 17 July 1924 vol 58 cc693-6

Bead 3a (according to Order).

Valuation and surrender of teinds.

15.—(1) After the passing of this Act the provisions set out in the Sixth Schedule to this Act which relate to the obtaining of valuations of teinds and the surrender of valued teinds shall have effect for those purposes and the present law and practice relating thereto shall cease to apply but without prejudice to any proceedings taken before the passing of this Act or to any proceedings which may be taken within twelve months after the passing of this Act for the approbation of reports of sub-commissioners relating, to the valuation of teinds.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH had given Notice to move, in subsection (1), to leave out "twelve months" and insert "three years." The noble Duke said: My Lords, I am sorry to take up your Lordships' time, and I will be as brief as I can. The question with which I have to deal is somewhat complicated, though very important. It will affect a large number of people unless it is put in a satisfactory position before this Bill becomes an Act. I think I should say again that there have been considerable difficulties in dealing with this Bill owing to the delay which has taken place in printing the Bill after its various stages in this House. For instance, I may say that the reprint of the Report Stage of this Bill, which was taken last Thursday, was, I think, issued only yesterday, and at any rate did not arrive in Scotland in time to allow one to put down an Amendment after having an opportunity of reading the reprint. I had to put down the two Amendments which stand in my name before I had been able to see the revised Bill as reprinted after the Report Stage.

The Amendments which I have put down practically amount to the same thing. I will be as brief as I can, because I understand that the Government, though they will not be able to accept the Amendment, will consider whether they can deal with the question when this Bill reaches another place. Under the existing law and practice, a heritor whose teinds were valued in the seventeenth century, by a Report of Sub-Commissioners appointed in 1617—your Lordships will sec that this is very ancient history—to carry out the valuation of these teinds, can have them approbated. Until they have been approbated in the Teinds Court, these sub-valuations are not legally binding, though in most cases they have been acted upon. One difficulty is that it is not known how many of these valuations require approbation, and apparently there is at present no means of ascertaining this. The danger is that if, after this Bill passes into law, insufficient time or opportunity is given to the heritors to obtain approbation, they may be put to very serious loss, and very heavy burdens may be imposed upon them which do not now exist.

I may give your Lordships one instance. I know one property on which, under the old valuation, the teind is somewhere about £10 per annum, but I believe that if it were valued now the teind would be something like £240 per annum, or twenty-four times as much. The question of these approbations was raised towards the end of the discussion on this Bill which took place between representatives of the heritors and representatives of the Church, but the point was discussed in connection with Clause 7 of the Sixth Schedule, and all the parties, including the Teinds Clerk, who is practically the only man who really knows this question, came to the conclusion that the Bill did not take away the right to approbate. It had been overlooked, however, that Clause 15 of the Bill expressly provides that the present law and practice relating to valuation and surrender shall cease after the passing of the Act. It is true that this provision is declared to be without prejudice to any proceedings taken before that date, and the point is whether approbation proceedings taken, let us say, in 1925, on a sub-valuation made as far back as 1629, are a continuation of proceedings taken before the passing of the Act or not.

My Amendment is designed to give sufficient time for people to get these approbations through. The difficulty is that very few people know what is entailed. A great deal of search is required and, what is a still greater difficulty, the whole of these cases have got to go through the Teinds Office. As these people cannot possibly be allowed to go through the Teinds Office, if there are a great many of them, and I suppose there are a great number, it is impossible within the time allowed to get the business through. In that case, there might, be a great burden and injustice, which I know the Government do not intend to put upon the heritors. I put down my two Amendments really as alternative Amendments, but I have had an opportunity of consulting the Government. I believe they are rather averse to the Amendments. I believe that they agree that it is a reasonable and right request, but their objection is one of form. The Amendment increasing the period to three years probably gives sufficient time, but it is undesirable to delay bringing the Bill into operation a day longer than is necessary, and if the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack gives an undertaking that this question will be thoroughly looked into and put right in the House of Commons, so that there will be no injustice inflicted, I would not wish to detain your Lordships any longer with a further explanation of this very complicated subject.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My noble friend has been good enough to communicate his Amendments to me at an early stage, and I have had an opportunity of considering them with the Lord Advocate. We fully appreciate the point that he has made. It is a reasonable point, but one which requires consideration. It does not go to the root principle of the Bill, but only to the machinery of it. Looking into it, we think probably we can meet the wishes of the noble Duke, although the form of the required Amendment needs consideration by those having full technical knowledge. I am prepared to undertake that when the Bill goes to the Commons the matter shall be fully considered. It is impossible to say more at this moment, or anything else except that we will do our best to meet what seems to be a reasonable desire on the part of the noble Duke.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

I would like to thank the Lord Chancellor, and in these circumstances I will not move my Amendments.

Privilege Amendments agreed to.

Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.