HL Deb 02 July 1924 vol 58 cc95-111

Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.

LORD MUIR MACKENZIE

My Lord, I do not think I need occupy very much of your Lordships' time in proposing the Second Reading of this Bill. It is a Bill to give statutory authority to arrangements which have been made with a view to the improvement of several of the Offices in Scotland. These arrangements have been in contemplation for a long time and, indeed, temporary steps were taken, under the initiative not only of the present Government but of the late Government and their predecessors, towards arriving in due course at the improvements which are set forth in this Bill.

The Bill has been in a state of gestation for a long time. It may be said to date back to the time when the Royal Commission on the Civil Service, of which I was a member, went into these matters, went to Edinburgh and examined into the state of the Offices there, and eventually presented a Report with several recommendations. There may be said to be a certain gleam of the "Geddes axe" in the provisions of this Bill. It was introduced into the House a year ago, as a Bill of the then Government, and there is no doubt that with the commanding majorities they had in both Houses of Parliament, it would have been passed but for the transformation scene which took place last November. The Bill is now reintroduced. With the exception of one or two words, it is exactly the same. Although the present Government is not in so fortunate a position as the late Government with regard to numbers, yet I hope your Lordships will give it a Second Reading and pass it pretty much as it stands.

Let me call your attention to some of the principal clauses in the Bill—and I must apologise to the House, having a very bad throat and some considerable difficulty in speaking. The first clause is one which appoints a Parliamentary Under-Secretary. There is a Parliamentary Under-Secretary already, but his functions and his title confine him to the duties of the Board of Health in Scotland, and it has been thought for some time desirable that, if possible, his functions should be extended so as to enable him to assist the Secretary for Scotland in all the jurisdiction which he has to exercise. I do not think I need say more upon that clause; it is in practically the usual form of such a clause. Clause 2 is possibly more difficult. It does two things. It proposes to diminish the numbers on the Scottish Board of Health as at present constituted, and also to remove the special qualifications which are necessary in regard to some members of the Board. A question has been raised with regard to this matter—whether it is more desirable to keep the present position of having a Board of Health, or, in the interests of administration, to have the Office constituted in the ordinary way like a Civil Service Office with a permanent head and a staff of sufficient officers. On the whole, the Secretary for Scotland has come to the conclusion that it would not be opportune to raise so large a question as that of the constitution of Boards in Scotland, where there are several, and that it would be better to leave it to some future occasion.

The opinion is held that the number of members of the Board of Health is excessive. The existing Act of Parliament provides that the number shall be "not exceeding six," which generally means that there shall be six. At the present moment, by reason of vacancies, there are four, and the Secretary for Scotland is of opinion that the Board could be carried on with perfect efficiency not only if there were four but if the number were reduced to three, and that is what is proposed in the clause. A difficulty arises because of the fact that under the existing Act certain of the members of the Board require to have special qualifications. There are to be two medical members, at least one woman, and one advocate or law agent, and therefore you cannot get on with less than four unless you make some alteration with regard to the special qualifications. It is necessary, therefore, to put something of that sort in the clause. The Secretary for Scotland thinks it desirable that he should not be fettered any longer by the necessity for having members with special qualifications, but should be able to appoint the best man in all the circumstances whenever a vacancy occurs. I do not think that I need detain the House any longer over that clause, but it is a clause concerning which a great deal of agitation, or at any rate of interest, has been shown in Scotland.

As regards the third clause, it is a very simple matter of making the paid Chairman of the Fisheries Board available for the ordinary pensionable position of a civil servant. When we come to Clauses 4 to 9 and 12 to 14, we come to what is really the most important part of the Bill, and the part in which the greatest interest has been taken. It is thought by the Government that a great deal may be done for the strengthening of the Department of Records in Scotland and for extending its usefulness. Great importance is attached to that point by many in Scotland, especially with reference to the historical value of the records. Records of much historical" value are to be found not only in Edinburgh but also in various places throughout Scotland, and it would be very desirable if the Record Office in Edinburgh were in a position to get into touch with local depositories of records, and possibly arrive at some plan by which, for historical and other purposes, greater use might be made of the Record Office.

It would be impossible to put the whole of the details of a scheme of that sort into the Bill, but the Secretary for Scotland intends, if the Bill becomes law, to obtain the advice of a Committee of those who would be competent to deal with the subject and to arrive at some scheme for increasing the usefulness of the Department to which I have referred. That is the main object of the clauses with which I am dealing. The present head of the Record Office, who is called Deputy Keeper of the Records, will be Keeper of the Records, and will become the head of the Office, subject only to the Secretary for Scotland. So also the Register of Deeds and the Register of Sasines will become independent and have their own heads, except as regards the jurisdiction of the Secretary for Scotland.

I do not think that I need go into any further general remarks about the objects of this part of the Bill, but I ought to mention one very important point regarding Clause 4 which I have omitted. The Clause says that "the present vacancy in the office of Deputy Clerk Register shall not be supplied." The office of Deputy Clerk Register has gradually lost almost the whole of its functions, and on a recent occasion, when a separate department in the Register-General for Scotland was constituted, a pledge was given in Parliament that the office of Deputy Clerk Register should not be filled, and it has, in fact, been vacant for some considerable time.

May I ask the House to look for a moment at Clause 8, concerning which there has, I think, been some misapprehension? The clause has been read as if it would take away from the Lord Clerk Register some parts of his jurisdiction. But that is not the case. What the clause does is to provide, if the Bill passes, for there no longer being a Deputy Clerk Register. It provides for somebody to take the place of the Lord Clerk Register at the election of Representative Peers for Scotland if, for any reason, he should not be present.

Then I would ask your Lordships to look at Clause 9, which gives power, after consultation with certain high authorities in Scotland, to unite together any two of the three offices of Register of Sasines, Keeper of the Records and Register of Deeds. The object is to unite and consolidate these offices. I think that at present the Secretary for Scotland has some doubt as to whether it would be desirable in any circumstances to amalgamate the office of the Keeper of the Records with either, not to say both, of the other offices, and I think it is probable that, when clause 9 comes to be considered in Committee, some modification may be proposed in that connection.

There are only two other small matters to which I should like to call attention. One of them relates to Clause 12, which, as it reads, has given the impression that a large part of the functions at present conducted in Edinburgh are practically to be transferred to London. There is no intention of that kind, and I hope, in Committee, to be in a position to speak more fully upon that subject. The other point to which I wish to refer concerns Clause 13, and I merely wish to indicate that there is a saving of all that is at present vested in or exercised by the Treasury or the Court of Session, and nothing in the provisions of this Bill is to derogate from their powers. I think I have detained your Lordships long enough for the purpose of moving the Second Reading of this Bill, and, although the Secretary for Scotland thinks and trusts that your Lordships will think that the Bill as it stands is right. I shall welcome any suggestions that may come from any of your Lordships in the direction of improving the Bill. I can assure your Lordships that anything that is moved as an Amendment with a view to the improvement of this measure will receive the most careful consideration of the Secretary for Scotland. I beg to move.

Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a.—(Lord Muir Mackenzie.)

LORD DUNEDIN

My Lords, you are aware, I think, that I have made it a rule not to intrude in your debates, but every rule must have its exception, and this Bill, especially in its second part, deals with matters with which it is so impossible that your Lordships should have any familiarity and makes some changes which are so far-reaching and, in my opinion, not for the public good, that I think it necessary to take the advantage which practical experience has given me and to address your Lordships on this occasion. The Bill has been introduced by my noble friend. Lord Muir Mackenzie. No one has admired more than I have the sense of public duty—for I am sure it is nothing else—which has prompted him to give up his well earned leisure and to take up the task which he fulfils in this House. Day by day the noble Lord comes down, and he smiles engagingly upon the little family of Bills. But he is not the real father of that little family. I suspect that he has little more than a bowing acquaintance with the true parents of many of the measures.

And what a Bill this was to give him? I might put to him a conundrum, and I cannot refrain from asking him a question. Where shall I find the edictal citations? I prefer to try to touch him a little nearer the quick. The noble Lord has a most respected ancestor. Mackenzie of Delvine, about the year 1800, was leading Writer to the Signet in Edinburgh, and enjoyed the confidence of all the Judges of the Court of Session. Many of his writings will be found in the pages of Morrison's Dictionary. If I tell you that, in spite of this odour of sanctity which attached to the noble Lord's ancestor, it is the case that in 1790 he was put to the horn and remained unrelaxed, to which of the Keepers would my noble friend go, and when he went there would he ask for certificate of non-entry or extract letters of relaxation?

I know also that my noble friend, when he finds himself in any legal difficulty, turns, as a flower to the sun, to his legal colleague Lord Parmoor, but I cannot think that Lord Parmoor on this occasion would be a "very present help in time of trouble." We all know his distinguished legal career, but this Bill savours not of the ecclesiastical, but of admissions and hornings, and so on. Why, this semiareana of the past has never vexed the simple souls of the Parliamentary Bar. Turning my eyes to the Government Bench and finding no assistance there, I naturally come to the Woolsack. Now I have great confidence in the Lord Chancellor, and it is a confidence not born of yesterday, but born, if he will allow me to say so, of long years of real friendship and close association. If I thought that the Lord Chancellor had been the real originator of this Bill, I should think twice before I found any fault with it, but I am sure he is not. He has been far too busy with other things. I feel sure, and I think I may almost say that all your Lordships feel sure, that the exertions of the Lord Chancellor within the last few months might put to shame the activities of many a drill sergeant, and, therefore, I feel sure that this Bill never emanated from him.

Do not let it be supposed that my attitude towards this Bill is one of absolute hostility. I have no fault to find with its Title, but it is a Bill divided into two parts, and as to the first part, your Lordships are in a position just as good as mine to judge whether the alterations that are to be made are for the public good or not. At the same time, I think, perhaps, it would be better that I should let your Lordships know exactly how the matter stands. Really two things are done by the first part. In the first place, the members of the Board of Health are greatly reduced, and, secondly, there is a diminution of the legal element.

The history of the matter is shortly this. The parent of this Department in Scotland was the old Board of Supervision, which was constituted in 1845, and the members of that Board of Supervision consisted of the Lords Provost of Edinburgh and Glasgow-, three of the sheriffs, the Solicitor-General and three added members, of whom one was paid and was the Chairman. I am afraid that I was Solicitor-General so long ago that it was still in the time of the Board of Supervision, and I can assure your Lordships that the work of the Solicitor-General was no sinecure. In 1S94 this was altered. There was by that time a Secretary for Scotland. It was the time when the parish councils were introduced, and the Local Government Board for Scotland was constituted, and the constitution of that Board was the Secretary for Scotland, the Solicitor-General, and three members, all paid, one of whom was Chairman, one legal and one medical. I think I may say that that Board acted very harmoniously and well.

In 1919, however, a great change was made and a Parliamentary Secretary was put in, the existing three members of the old Local Government Board were taken, two others were added as Insurance Commissioners, and it was provided that the Board should always consist of at least two medical men, one or more women, and one legal member, who no longer, as before, was necessarily to be an advocate but might be what in Scotland is the equivalent of a solicitor. Now I think experience has shown that that larger Board did not work nearly as harmoniously as the smaller Board did before, and therefore, so far as this Bill proposes to reduce the numbers of the Board, I am quite in agreement with it; but I do think it is a very dangerous matter to eliminate altogether the necessity of having a legal member. I say that, not simply out of regard for lawyers but because Of the dangers which I foresee in the future. I foresee quite easily that when this Bill reaches another place there will be certainly an attempt to put in a necessity for a woman, and a necessity for a medical member. I think a medical member is a necessity, but a woman not necessarily so. But what I say is that if you have that put in the Bill, and no provision is made for the law, and then have cue of those tempting-moments for a Government with a safe seat, and someone for whom they had to find a seat, I think it would be a very unfortunate arrangement for the composition of the Board.

I pass from that and come to the second portion of the Bill. I do not know that your Lordships have looked at the second part of the Bill, but if you listened to the noble Lord I wonder what you made of it. I should think the effect on ordinary people of reading the second part of the Bill would be the effect I have experienced myself on reading a prescription by a strange doctor. It begins with something like an "R" and a flourish—perhaps even some of your Lordships did not know that that is the sign of the Egyptian magician Horus. It goes on with an enumeration of drugs which, being expressed in an abbreviated Latin, would prevent you recognising even those with which you are familiar. It is followed by cabalistic signs, and then at the end comes—" to be taken as directed." That is exactly what the noble Lord says—the Bill is to be passed as it stands. I do not think your Lordships need take it as directed.

The great alteration in this Bill is the abolition of the Deputy Clerk Register. The Lord Clerk Register's Department is a very ancient Department of Scotland. It began in 1532, when the Lord Clerk Register was appointed and was also made a Judge. More or less, at that time, he corresponded, in embryo at least, to the Master of the Rolls, but he soon ceased to be a Judge, though he still had the conduct of all the different Courts and the patronage of the lower offices, which were under him. In 1879 all power was taken away from the Lord Clerk Register. He became really a mere honorary official, and perhaps no one would ever have known of him if it had not been for the part he takes in the election of the Representative Peers at Holyrood. Then his powers were transferred to the Deputy Clerk Register. Those powers were not really defined, but, luckily for the Office at that time, there was a gentleman of very great ability and very great force of character, who, without having any real legal powers, practically acted as the head of the Office. But that gentleman died, and the happy state of affairs did not go on.

Any one who knows the history of the Register House will know that during years—I do not wish to particularise by mentioning names—there has been a great deal of most unnecessary friction, and that unnecessary friction will always go on unless you have a reputed head of the Office. This Bill, instead of making a head, perpetuates the idea of separate establishments. The noble Lord said that under this Bill there would be facilities for doing a great deal in extending their usefulness. There is a great deal to be done as regards the records of Scotland, the historical records particularly. As regards the records which have been kept in the various Sheriff Courts, they have been allowed to get into a very deplorable state. There is much to be done, and I personally regret very much that the Government have not seen their way to keep the office of Deputy Clerk Register, and to make him the responsible head of the Office. I am sure that if they did what might be done for the records in Scotland there would be plenty of work for him to do.

The noble Lord said that some temporary steps had already been taken. The temporary step that has already been taken is a step that the Treasury always approves of—namely, leaving an office unfilled. There is no reason for this from the point of view of economy, because this Department, so far from costing the country anything, really brings in about £10,000 a year of surplus. Then there is a particularly objectionable clause in the Bill. Clause 12, which reads:— From and after the passing of this Act the Secretary for Scotland shall have and may exercise all the power" and duties in regard to the control of the public registers, records and rolls of Scotland and the keepers and other officers thereof heretofore vested in the Deputy Clerk Register."' That means that there is put into the hands of a political person, who lives in London, the powers which used to be executed by a resident officer in Edinburgh. I do not think it is at all expedient that the Register House should be managed from London. It is far better managed in Edinburgh.

But the great thing is that you want a head, and I would very much sooner that the office of Deputy Clerk Register had been kept. I did not want to be too stiff in the matter, and I intimated to the Government that if they would put in a clause really making one of the heads of Departments head of the Office I might be content with that. I have not found that they propose to do so; they propose to leave one of the Departments out. That there must be a head is, I think, apparent. It has come even to this—that there are squabbles as to what room should be occupied by one person or another. But this thing can no doubt be altered by Amendment, and it is because it can be altered by Amendment that I have not thought it necessary to put down a Motion for the rejection of the Bill.

The Bill as it stands is opposed by the Faculty of Advocates. It is against the opinions of the present. Lord Justice General, Lord Clyde, who is known to many of you, and, so far as I am concerned, it is my ultimatum that there should be a reputed head of the Office. In saying that, I am aware, of course, that I have only one vote, and I have no right, because I do not take part sufficiently often in your Lordships' debates, to say that an ipse dixit from me should carry the matter. But I have some friends to whom, I think, I may apply. I see on those Benches many of those who were associated with me in another place, and I trust to them to assure your Lordships that in a matter like this I would not speak without full conviction. If necessary, I shall ask your Lord ships' assistance to carry those Amendments.

VISCOUUNT NOVAR

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord has given a qualified support to the first part of the Bill, and, with regard to the second, of which he has been somewhat critical, I understand that some modification is proposed by the noble Lord who brought in the Bill. I should like to see it in print before I express any opinion upon it. Like him, however, I hope that this Bill may pass pretty much as it stands. The Bill was drafted during my term of office and contains part only of the provisions which it was originally intended to submit to your Lordships' House. Certain others had not been finally adjusted when the late Government went out of office. There were other matters also which I had desired to deal with in the Bill, but which had not been sufficiently submitted to public opinion or scrutinised by it. The measure, as introduced by the noble Lord opposite, whose courtesy I gratefully acknowledge, and whose wisdom in taking it up I highly applaud, deals, as he indicates, with only three or four points, but these have been very fully considered.

Among some dubious Coalition legacies there is none more inexplicable than that which attached an Under-Secretary to one single Scottish Board, while altering the name of that Board from the most appropriate one of Local Government to the quite inappropriate one of Health. The theory in either case apparently was that the whole is greater than its parts.

It is fruitless to inquire why one Department out of all those for which the Secretary of Scotland is responsible, should have an Under-Secretary to itself, as well as an exceedingly numerous and well-paid Board of co-equal members. The fact is, Mr. Lloyd George believed he had invented health. It was to him a new thing. To give emphasis and éclat to this mid-day dawn of a new era in public health, the Department was set up and, paradoxically, this Department has ever since been chiefly preoccupied, with housing relief and all the other matters connected with local self-government.

The Bill proposes that the exclusive nature of the functions of the Under-Secretary should cease, that he should become Under-Secretary in Scottish administration in London and in Edinburgh, and be in touch with all the activities of the Scottish Office. There is an immense variety of business coming under the purview of that Office and the need for the Secretary for Scotland being assisted by an Under-Secretary is, therefore, very great. To my mind, that is the chief clause in the Bill. Edinburgh is a rabbit warren of Departments. The Secretary for Scotland and the Under-Secretary have to be in personal touch with Boards, Commissions and the Civil Service, to meet many deputations there in order to obviate the cost to the rates of their coming up to London, and to minimise the interruption of administrative work in Edinburgh, at the Scottish Office itself, and in Parliament so that it may not be impeded owing to the existence of two administrative systems situated so far apart. Given a good Under-Secretary of the type with whom I was fortunate to be associated, and a Law Officer in the House of Commons, the functions of the Secretary for Scotland can be efficiently performed, especially if he have the blessed privilege of a seat in your Lordships' House.

The noble Lord opposite has referred to Clause 2 and Clause 3. Those clauses deal with restrictions in the number of the Board of Health, which, I think, would lead to efficiency as well as to economy—and to the Fishery Board, another very important Department. Clause 4 provides for a partial redistribution of responsibilities in a group of offices in and about the Register House, where for some time there has been a lack of co-ordination and control. I agree with the noble and learned Lord that it would be very desirable, if possible, to have one head to that Office. But the matter was not sufficiently advanced when this Bill was drafted in order to be able to make that proposal. The Deputy Clerk Registership has been unfilled for several years, and the pledge was given that it should not be re-filled when the Register Generalship was constituted in 1920. Sections of learned and professional opinion desired to resurrect the Deputy Clerk Register, but I should prefer rather to see such further consolidations carried out, believing them to be in the public interest.

It is suggested that these clauses will give undue control to officials, but the personal control of the Secretary for Scotland will neither be greater nor less under the Rill than it has been, while, on the other hand, the more numerous the head officials with whom the Secretary for Scotland is brought into contact the greater the difficulty of supervising the work and the greater, as a rule, the delay in carrying out decisions which have been reached. At any rate, I am of opinion that an independent poet should not be resurrected, and I hope that your Lordships will agree to the final dismissal from the scene of one unnecessary head official. Opposition to these clauses has developed, no doubt, since I left the Scottish Office. I have no knowledge of replies from Dover House to communications being regarded as unsatisfactory, and, therefore. I must leave such complaints to be dealt with by His Majesty's Government. I sympathise entirely with the desire expressed in influential quarters that registration, and all connected with it, should be under competent supervision. It is; also very desirable that arrears should be cleared off, but that is a matter of giving adequate clerical assistance.

It is somewhat discouraging to find that this small attempt to effect consolidation and economy should arouse so much opposition. It is another example of the universality of the practice of preaching economy while resisting every practical step towards its attainment. As a matter of fact, the policy of the Bill needs to be carried much further. The custom of setting up separate Departments, with or without Boards or Committees, in Edinburgh, has been carried very far, and the question that should be investigated is whether the normal Civil Service under normal Ministerial guidance is not as suitable there as elsewhere. Originally, Committees or Boards were filled mainly by voluntary workers, who provided good and cheap public service. The interests of Scotland in those days were under the Home Office and these Boards were considered to be a good buffer between that Department in London and Scottish opinion.

It was at the Home Office as representing the interests of Scotland that the noble Earl, Lord Rosebery, entered upon his official career. It was at that time thought that the interests of Scotland were certainly not sufficiently provided for. We still find traces of that system in the Fishery Board and in the Lighthouse and other Services. But that order of things is passing away and our choice now lies between the ordinary Civil Service and the paid boardsman or boardswoman. My personal conclusion is that the normal Civil Service system is less cumbrous and unsatisfactory and more easily controlled and, therefore, on the whole, more satisfactory than that of the salaried Board. In some Scottish offices, notably the Education Department, although there is nominally a Board of Education, the relations of the Secretary for Scotland with the head of that Board are very similar to those between him and the permanent Under-Secretary at Dover House. That is a most satisfactory arrangement. Moreover, the normal Civil Service system has the further advantage of eliminating all political and personal considerations in the making of appointments. I have referred to the wider aspect of the whole matter and to the re-organisation of offices partly to show how modest is the measure which is now before your Lordships' House and how desirable it is that a first step should be made so as to lead further towards the acceptance of other proposals on similar lines.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT HALDANE)

My Lords, after the speech of my noble friend the late Secretary for Scotland it might seem unnecessary that any further words should be said on behalf of the Government. But I cannot forget that, last night, a Bill which wa6 brought in by the late Government, taken up again by the present Government, and thought to be acceptable to your Lordships, was ruthlessly thrown out. My noble friend Earl Beauchamp has the satisfactory sensation of having found himself a revolutionary yesterday. On this occasion, my noble friend Lord Dunedin did not conclude his speech with a Motion for rejection. He said that there are many points in which he thinks a Bill of this kind is necessary, but he proceeded somewhat to prejudice the character and associations of the Bill. He referred to the provisions of the: Bill and suggested that the Secretary for Scotland was too much occupied to be trusted to look into these various matters.

I had the honour of being born in the City of Edinburgh. I lived there for a long time. I am well acquainted with its institutions and even with its Boards. I have looked into this Bill very carefully not merely as a member of the Government, but as one who himself has a personal knowledge of these institutions. In the days of my noble and learned, friend I dare say there were more of these institutions than there are to-day. but there are still a good many, and I sympathise with the suggestion made by the late Secretary for Scotland, who said that if he had his way the Bill would have, gone even further than it does. But in, Scottish matters this is a very conservative Government, and proceeds very timidly, and it must be forgiven for not going further in this particular Bill.

What is the essence of this Bill? It proposes to abolish the office of Parliamentary Under-Secretary for Health, and to make further provision with regard to the constitution of a Scottish Board of Health and with regard to the public registers, records and rolls of Scotland. The office which it is proposed to abolish is an out-of-date one, and its holder is not likely to exercise control over the matters in question. The point of substance which I think might be made is that even under the Register the records of Scotland were by no means adequately looked after. As many of your Lordships know, there are small libraries in Scotland which are repositories for all kinds of valuable historical documents, and in those places those documents were rotting and mouldering away because they were not looked after. It is because we want to have them looked after that we are bringing in this Bill.

There is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what the. Bill will do. These documents and papers are to be put under the Keeper of the Records, and kept in his Department. He will be the head of his own Department, but, he is to be advised by an expert, and to have an adequate staff so that these local records may be properly looked after and be made available for consultation. Those who want to investigate into the antiquities and historical records of Scotland will be able to do so, because the records will be properly looked after and kept. Although there will be three officials, one of whom will look after the records, there is not the slightest reason why any one should be put over the other. The head will be responsible for making any arrangements necessary. I do not think I need say more on that point. The hands of the Secretary of Scotland are left perfectly free in regard to the powers and duties respecting the control of the public registers, records and rolls of Scotland, and the keepers and other officers.

I agree with my noble friend, Viscount Novar, that the right course would have been to get rid of this Board of Health altogether. That that has not been done I can only attribute to the intense conservatism of the country from which I come. I hope I have dispelled some of the delusions that there are about this Bill, and have satisfied your Lordships that its proposals are really very moderate, and that you can pass it with a perfect sense of security and without any of the apprehensions which have been mentioned.

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

My Lords, I should like to thank the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack for the speech he has just made, because there have been some apprehensions in Scotland that they would have to apply to London, and do all sorts of things, in order to get access to these records. I do not wish to criticise the Bill. So far as I can see, the Bill is an advantage, but one point is felt very strongly. It is this: that in dealing with these records there should be a proper system of looking after them, and that they should be entirely in Scotland and not in London. From what the noble and learned Viscount on the Woolsack has said, we can be assured on that point. At the same time we must remember that no one has had greater experience of these Offices than my noble and learned friend Lord Dunedin, who has not only filled the office of Solicitor-General but also that of Lord Advocate and that of Secretary for Scotland, and for some time was head of the Courts in Scotland. Although I do not know whether ho is right or wrong in his proposal, I am sure that when the Committee stage comes your Lordships will give considerable weight to any arguments he advances. In the meantime, I am glad to have the assurance of the noble and learned Lord Chancellor which, I think, will dispel a good deal of the misapprehension which has existed on this question.

On Question, Bill read 2a and committed to a Committee of the whole House.