HL Deb 28 June 1923 vol 54 cc686-91

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Viscount Novar.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly:

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.

Clause 2, to insert the following new clauses:

Amendment of 8 & 9 Geo. 5, c. 48, s. 3.

("3. For subsection (2) of Section 3 of 'the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, the following subsection shall be substituted:' A school management committee shall, subject to any regulations and restrictions made by the education authority, have alt the power "and duties of that authority in regard to the general management and supervision of the school or group of schools, including attendance thereat; Provided that the education authority shall in every case themselves retain, exercise and perform all their powers and duties in regard to—

  1. '(a) the raising of money by rate or loan and the control of expenditure;
  2. '(b) the acquisition or holding of land;
  3. '(c) the appointment, transfer, remuneration and dismissal of teachers;
  4. '(d) the appointment of bursars, and the exercise of the powers conferred by the section of the principal Act relating to power to facilitate attendance at secondary schools and other institutions; and
  5. '(e) the recognition, establishment or discontinuance of intermediate or secondary schools or of centres of advanced technical instruction.' ")

Amendment of 8 Edw. 7, c. 63, s. 3 (3).

("4. To subsection (3) of Section three of the Education (Scotland) Act, 1908, as amended by paragraph 5 (a) of the Fifth Schedule to the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, there shall be added the following words: Provided that if in any case an education authority can satisfy the Scottish Education Department that the provision of facilities under this subsection would involve less cost than the provision of new school accommodation or the continuance of existing school accommodation which would otherwise be necessary for any part of their area, it shall be within the power of that education authority, subject to the approval of the Department, to provide such facilities without having special regard to the circumstances of the parents of the children concerned. ")

The noble Duke said: I will be as short as I can upon this not very cheerful subject, Scottish education, but it is necessary that I should give some explanation of these clauses which I move to be inserted. The reason for doing this is that in the Education (Scotland) Act, 1918, it is provided by Section 3 that every education authority shall appoint school management committees. These committees for the most part consist of co-opted members. The school management committees are to have all the powers and duties of the authority subject to any regulations and restrictions made by the education authority. It is, however, specially provided, under subsection (2), that in the case where a school management committee in a county has under its management a secondary school it shall not have its powers and duties restricted by any regulations or restrictions made by the authority. There is a general provision that in every case the authority shall retain its powers and duties in regard to the raising of money by rate or loan and the general control of expenditure; and other powers are also reserved.

Very serious difficulties have arisen on account of the provision that committees with a secondary school are to be free from regulations by the authorities, and friction between school management committees and authorities is constantly occurring. In some cases the school management committee has defied the authority, with the result that the authority has been unable, although it is the parent body, to carry out its policy. Such a school management committee may have not only a secondary school under it "charge but also one or more primary schools, and it means that such a committee, being unrestricted in its work, may act both with regard to the secondary school and the primary schools entirely independently of the authority and may flout it. If the difficulty is attempted to be got over by having a separate committee for the secondary school and a separate committee for the primary schools, it means the duplication of machinery and, of course, additional cost.

Difficulties have occurred in eleven counties. They have arisen over every conceivable point—over the curricula, over school attendance, over the policy with regard to the provision of schools, over religious teaching, and over finance. In one case the school management committee refused absolutely to carry out acts of administration which had been agreed to by the county authority. Another committee refused to carry out the rules with regard to the fixing of holidays. In other counties the remedy was found by the authority securing a majority of its own members on the committee. That was done, but it is, of course, rather a farce.

With regard to some other counties, the committees have claimed the right to deal exclusively with exemption from school of children below the age of fourteen or even thirteen and thus to get round the Act As the Government grants are, in part, based on the average attendance of scholars it is of importance that a committee composed mainly of co-opted members who have no responsibility to the ratepayers should not control attendance to the prejudice of the revenue of the authority, nor should they be in a position to vitiate the policy of an authority favourable to the extended school life of children. The only control which the authority has left in the case of such committees is with regard to expenditure, the acquisition of land, the appointment of teachers, the appointment of bursars, and the recognition, establishment, or discontinuance of intermediate or secondary schools. But even the right of control over finance has been challenged in one county by a committee which claims that the 1918 Act only gives general control over expenditure and that the committee has charge of detailed expenditure. It is obvious that co-opted members without responsibility to the ratepayers should have no control of expenditure, either in detail or otherwise.

Further, it has been held by a decision in the Sheriff Court at Linlithgow, in connection with the prosecution of parents of children for non-attendance, that such committees have the power to prosecute, and accordingly an authority which has retained otherwise the right to deal with defaulting parents is prevented from carrying out a general policy in this respect either by the failure to act of, or by the action which may be taken by, such a school management committee. Generally speaking, it may be said that such school management committees constitute themselves as rival bodies to the authority in the management of such schools as are under their charge.

I have given your Lordships these details because there is a good deal of misunderstanding on the point. What is desired is to give control to the properly constituted authority, the elected authority. I may add that the whole of the education authorities in Scotland are in favour of the Amendment proposed, and I have been asked officially to bring this Amendment forward. I hope the Secretary of State for Scotland may see his way to accept it.

Amendment moved— After Clause 2 insert the said new clauses.—(The Duke of Atholl.)

VISCOUNT HALDANE

Before the noble Viscount answers for the Government I venture to join in the appeal to him to consider this proposal favourably. The Education Act, as it stood, embodied a section which was intended to make easy the transition from the old Scottish system of local parish school boards managing the education of Scotland to the new system of larger authorities with large areas but still directly representative of the electors. This system has now been working for four years and has worked very well, but the difficulties to which the noble Duke has alluded have cropped up. The little committees which manage in a parish are composed of people who care very little about the education of the children, and take away a year from their education in order that they may work on the farms at the age of thirteen. That, of course, is destructive of anything like uniformity of chance for the children in education, and this proposition is that the education authority, which is just as representative of the farmers as anybody else, for it represents the whole community, should have the right to say what is to be the principle followed in these, cases. Then there is the other question as to control of the monies. Surely that control should be in the hands of people who are responsible to the ratepayers and not co-operated in by co-opted members who have no such responsibility. From every point of view I would venture to suggest to the Secretary for Scotland that this position is well worth considering favourably.

THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (VISCOUNT NOVAR)

I feel quite convinced by the arguments brought forward by the noble Duke, supplemented as they have been by the views of the noble Viscount opposite. I understand that the first of the two clauses which the noble Duke has put upon the Paper is directed towards removing what has proved in some cases to be a source of complexity and of administrative friction. The fact that the education authorities of Scotland without exception are in favour of the Amendment being given effect to entitles it, of course, to the very serious consideration of your Lordships' House and of the Government. The result of the introduction of the new Clause 3 would be to get rid of what has proved a real danger, the growth of an imperium in imperio, a school management committee whose precise relation to the parent body was not free from legal doubt and which might, therefore, in certain circumstances, put forward a claim for powers which the main part of the clause expressly vests in the education authority. After looking at the matter I am satisfied that the object in view is a desirable one and, subject to one reservation, I am prepared to accept the Amendment.

The new Clause 4 is put forward under circumstances that are not dissimilar. It has behind it the unanimous support of the thirty-seven education authorities, and its purpose is to make it possible for an authority, in suitable circumstances, to exercise a judicial economy by concentrating, without thereby placing an unfair burden on the parents of individual children. That is; where it can be shown that it would be more economical to pay the travelling expenses of pupils to an existing school than to erect another school in the immediate vicinity of their homes, it would, under the proposed new Clause 4, be open to the authority to accept the less costly alternative without inquiring as to whether the parents can afford to pay the cost of conveyance. The Department must in every case be satisfied that a saving will be really effected. This seems a reasonable change, and I propose to accept it, subject to one reservation.

The Bill now before your Lordships' House, being a non-contentious measure, will have to continue to be so. A deputation waited upon me some little time ago and informed me that they had satisfied themselves that the Amendments put forward by the noble Duke were not contentious in any quarter. If this anticipation is borne out there can be no difficulty, but if, on the other hand, there is any serious opposition to the new proposals when the Bill goes to another place, then the new clauses will have to be reconsidered. I may perhaps draw attention to a slight matter of drafting. In paragraph (d) of the new Clause 3, instead of the words "the principal Act," it should read "this Act." The Act of 1918 is itself the principal Act referred to.

THE DUKE OF ATHOLL

I will, of course, accept that drafting alteration.

On Question, the proposed new Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

On Question, the proposed new Clause 4, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.