§ LORD CARSONMy Lords, I beg to ask His Majesty's Government for information as to the murder of Head Constable Davis, on Thursday last in Tipperary, and as to the attack upon him and the members of the Royal Irish Constabulary on the occasion of their surrender, by orders of His Majesty's Government, of Tipperary barracks to the Irish Republican Army; and as to what steps are taken by His Majesty's Government to protect the lives of faithful officers of the Crown who are compelled to undergo such humiliations.
I have ventured to put this Question on the Paper, not because it is a mere individual instance of the savagery that is taking place in Ireland now and has existed for some time past, but because I desire to draw attention to the manner in which the most faithful servants of His Majesty are being treated under the Government which, whether in fact I do not know, but in law at all events, is responsible to this House. It is not so very long ago that your Lordships took every opportunity of saying what a splendid body the Royal Irish Constabulary were. I have heard that throughout the twenty-eight years I spent in the House of Commons, and I heard it repeated very often when I happened to come across to this place. They were the most faithful servants of His Majesty, and they were those faithful servants under difficulties which I doubt very much if all your. Lordships, at all events, ever really comprehended.
I have often met Englishmen who asked me, perhaps in the County of Kent, "Why do von not do with a few policemen in Ireland, as we are doing in the County of Kent?" as if Tipperary were Kent, or Limerick were Kent, or Surrey, or Sussex. These amen were men who every year, and every day of every year, carried their lives in their hands to try to serve the Government, of this country. Of course, that is now all changed; and I shall not on the present Question, which I have put down for information, talk more than I can help of what has happened since you were beaten in Ireland. You have surren- 373 tiered at discretion, and I should have thought that at all events you were great enough to do something to try to help those who had so faithfully served you as have the Royal Irish Constabulary.
But, my Lords, you, or rather the Government, have done nothing, except to try to get out of Ireland as fast as you can, and leave these unfortunate men to the tender mercies of those who, under your orders they were trying to keep within the law and were helping to punish when they did things which were outside the law. A more abject humiliation for any country has, I think, never been witnessed, but you can, at all events, stand the humiliation in the comfort in which you live, and the freedom from that kind of thing which you enjoy over here. No doubt you do, and I suppose there are very few of your Lordships who in the morning ever read about these murdered policemen. Apparently, nobody cares very much about these murdered policemen. They are of no more use to you, and indeed they are an encumbrance because I suppose they will get some kind of pension, if not from you, perhaps from your successors in Ireland.
Let your Lordships contemplate what humiliation these men have to go through because you have left them there to carry oat the humiliating policy which you have inaugurated. You have told these unfortunate men: "It is quite true that yesterday we ordered you to treat the Irish Republican Army and the servants of Mr. Collins and Mr. de Valera as outlaws and murderers and lawbreakers, but we ask you now, in the process of handing over the country after we have been beaten, to treat them as your masters, and you must be their attentive servants." That is humiliating enough even to a poor Royal Irish Constable. If that were all, I suppose humiliation breaks no bones, and it leaves people alive as a rule; and I suppose these men can go on and do something else. But I rarely take up an Irish newspaper, which I feel it my duty to read every day, without reading of the murder, or humiliation of various kinds, of these police or of others who have helped you. When marching through these places, where they were once in authority, they are jeered at, and sneered at, because, having once been your servants, you have now abandoned them.
The particular case to which I call attention shows that there is nobody to give 374 them protection, and that I say is an outrage. What happened last Thursday The police in Tipperary barracks were ordered by His Majesty's Government to hand over the barracks to the representatives of what is called the Provisional Government, which is, of course, a Government without any legal sanction or legal authority at all, but which is allowed to go on as a result of your being driven out of Ireland. The bulk of these men, as I understand the matter, left the barracks, and there remained in occupation the Assistant District Inspector and twelve other ranks—thirteen in all. They handed over the barracks to the representatives of your Allied Government, the Provisional Government. That was bad enough. They walked out, and the criminals and the others walked in as the restorers of law and order.
Then they started to proceed to Dublin, as they were ordered to do, bringing their motor cars, which belonged to your Government, to deliver them over; and they had hardly gone a few yards along the road when they were ambushed by the friends—or, if you like, the enemies—of the Provisional Government, to whom they had just handed over the barracks. Four of them were shot. One of them, Head Constable Davis, was killed, and the other three are seriously wounded. Thereupon, the representatives of the ambushing party proceeded to take £160 from the District Inspector, and also all the cars, arms, and ammunition, including twenty rifles, sortie revolvers, and 2,000 rounds of ammunition. It is hard to believe that such a thing can happen in what is called a civilised country.
My anxiety is not merely for these poor men, but for the remainder of the Royal Irish Constabulary. I want to know what this Government is going to do for these men, and how it is going to protect them in the future. Are you going to ask them, when you have withdrawn your soldiers and run away, to take all the risks of carrying out your policy of evacuation, handing over their barracks and their stores and their ammunition to the representatives of the Provisional Government, to run the chance a few moments afterwards of being shot in the streets in the performance of that duty for which you give them no protection?
This poor man—I do not know that it interests anybody, probably not; but I state it really that his relatives may know 375 there is somebody that takes an interest still in the Force—this poor man, Head Constable Davies, was 22 years in the service of His Majesty's Government, a faithful servant. He leaves a widow and five children. I want to ask whoever replies to me what the Government is going to do for the widow and the five children. No statutory compensation, as in ordinary cases, is at all adequate in a case of this kind, because the murder and outrage have been committed through your negligence and your incompetence and cowardice. You cannot escape your responsibility. You are the only Government responsible. And in following the evolution of events in Ireland at the present day, it is certainly a most extraordinary thing that the Government seem to think that, by ignoring what is going on, and getting the Press to ignore what is going on, you can really avoid responsibility for what is happening.
As I said before, this is not an isolated ease; there are many similar, some worse. In the same paper in which I read this I saw, almost in the next column, that a policeman had been kidnapped in the course of his duty, who, when he got back to his family, after his treatment while he was so kidnapped, had immediately to be sent to a lunatic asylum. Well, I am only an Irishman. I hope you are all proud that you are Englishmen, and I hope you are proud of your achievements in the pacification of my country.
THE MARQUESS OF DUFFERIN AND AVAMy Lords, I think it is high time that your attention was drawn to the manner in which His Majesty's Government are treating the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Auxiliary Police. I refer particularly to the humiliating circumstances under which they are made to hand over their surrendered barracks. I have a letter here which appeared in the Morning Post, and was sent by a father, who received it from his son in the Auxiliary Division of the R.I.C. He says that "the A.U.S. at the Castle "—I do not know whether you know Mr. Cope, but I really think, if the Government want peace in Ireland, the sooner they remove Mr. Cope the better—
Mr. Cope, the A.U.S. at the Castle, is intent on advertising our shame. We have to hand in all our kit before we leave, except uniform, great coat, and rifle. Then we march right from Beggar's Bush Barracks with empty rifles to Westland-row, in order that the public may jeer, hoot, and boo the defeated. And 'discipline is 376 to be preserved on the route.' For this disgusting piece of humiliation the Government have hired a transport ship at Holyhead, in which to collect our rifles and uniforms.You would have thought that the Government would have some consideration for the feelings of these wretched men who have been put in this position in carrying out the policy of the Government. Surely, when these men of the R.I.C. march out of barracks they should, at any rate, go with bands and flags flying, and ammunition, and all the rest of it. Taking away their ammunition is the sort of thing that a victorious enemy would do to a defeated force. It is not fair. I do think that they should have some consideration.I do not wish to say anything nasty, but the truth of it is that the Government are afraid of hurting the susceptibilities of Sinn Fein. They do not mind how they hurt the feelings of their own loyal people, but they will not do anything which would annoy Mr. Collins and his followers. Surely, the Government have not forgotten all that the R.I.C. did for them? I heard the Lord Chancellor make speeches in which he told how wonderfully they had performed their duties, how loyal they had been. But now, as one of them told me the other day, the Government treat them rather as if they were the enemies, and Sinn Fein were the friends.
How many police have been murdered since the truce, and since the surrender, I do not know. A great many have been murdered, and I only know one case where the' murderers were actually caught red-handed, and that was in the murder of a warder in a prison—a most horrible murder, in which they chloroformed the warder, and beat him on the head, and performed all sorts of other atrocities on him. In this case the man was tried, convicted, and sentenced to death. There were four of them as a matter of fact, and they were released by the Lord Lieutenant. Why were they released? Simply and solely because it was known that, if these men were hanged, it would displease Mr. Collins. I am sure even those of your Lordships who think that this Treaty, or surrender as I call it, was justifiable would wish that the R.I.C. should be properly treated, and I ask your Lordships to insist that this shall be done.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR (VISCOUNT BIRKENHEAD)My Lords, if the noble Marquess had pursued the convenient 377 course of informing me of the additional complaint that he intended to make should have acquainted, myself, as far as I could have done so, with the facts to which he desired to call your Lordships' attention. The noble Marquess has indicated that the members of the R.I.C. in the course of the evacuation which is being carried out are being treated with humiliation. Had the noble Marquess told me that he proposed to make that complaint I would have addressed myself to it. If he chooses to repeat it with Notice on the Paper I will make myself very familiar with the facts. Let me in the meantime tell him that I do not choose to accept as possessing the least authority an anonymous letter appearing in the Morning Post.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORThe noble Marquess says that it is known all over Ireland, but a mere general affirmation of this kind does not carry the slightest weight with me, until I have made inquiries as to whether it is known or whether it is admitted. I have heard too many sweeping statements here and elsewhere to yield credence to them until I have heard the facts. When the noble Marquess tells me that it is known all over Ireland he is probably not unaware that it is said with a great deal of iteration that terrible things are proceeding in Belfast.
§ LORD CARSONSo they are.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORSo they are, and undoubtedly at the present moment upon both sides in Ireland events are taking place which are shocking to all persons who desire the pacification of that country. But when the noble and learned Lord has accused the Government—and I am not sure that your Lordships are not involved in his condemnation—of every kind of cowardice and neglect of duty in a speech in which I think the word "humiliating" or "humiliated" will be found by those who read it in to-morrow's OFFICIAL REPORT, to have occurred sonic seventeen or eighteen times—
§ LORD CARSONQuite right.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR—we may at least examine the situation in a little 378 cooler perspective than the noble and learned Lord has done. The noble and learned Lord is an Irishman. He is at this moment pursuing, and has for many years pursued, a career in England. When we are told, in a speech overloaded with somewhat exhausted adjectives, of the humiliation to which all Englishmen are exposed, we may at least feel ourselves entitled to say that the English nation—which has not been accounted throughout. the centuries, either under this or any other Government, to be the careless custodian of the honour of England—in dealing with this problem of Ireland is entitled to consider its own difficulties, its own duties and its own resources.
It is our view, whether or no it be the view of the noble and learned Lord, that the overwhelming majority of the people of England are behind the Treaty and intend to support the Treaty. We are of opinion that had we made an appeal in the early part of this year, as many of us would have desired to do, for a clear statement of opinion from the constituencies of this country upon this Treaty, there would have been an overwhelming reply in favour of the terms of the Treaty. Indeed, those who favoured the intention which was then suggested by certain persons of taking the opinion of the country, were met by the reply: "There is no justification whatever for consulting the country upon the Irish Treaty because it is universally conceded that the country is strongly in favour of that Treaty." We may be right or we may be wrong; we may still be driven to ascertain whether we were right.
§ LORD CARSONHear, hear.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORAs I say, we may still be driven to ascertain whether we were right or whether we were wrong, and we shall certainly not shrink from doing so should such a contingency occur.
§ LORD CARSONHear, hear.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORIn the meantime, until it has occurred, and whether we are right or wrong that the assumption be well-founded that the course which we have adopted in the difficult circumstances in which we have been placed is one which has the overwhelming support of the people of England 379 and that they at any rate are behind us,. I for one listen with the most complete indifference to these taunts and accusations, and these "humiliating" epithets—
§ LORD CARSONHear, hear.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLOR — and to the noble and learned Lord's continued interjections, which are a little novel in our experience in debate in this House. The noble and learned Lord made another observation to which I will make bold to take exception, characteristic as it was of his controversial and Parliamentary methods. He said that the Royal Irish Constabulary not only enjoy no support and no sympathy from the Government, but that the Government looked upon them as an encumbrance because—I think the expression was—the Government had to pay the pensions. To me it is astounding that a noble and learned Lord, occupying a responsible position, should think it worthy of him, or worthy of the office he holds, to say of any English Government that they look upon the R.I.C. as an encumbrance in the sense and with the only possible suggestion underlying it, that their disappearance is a subject of indifference because they will become a financial charge upon the State. However low may be the opinion which the noble and learned Lord has of the Government, give me leave to say that that taunt is as unworthy of the Government as it is unworthy of himself and of the position that he holds.
§ LORD CARSONHear, hear.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORI shall have an opportunity if and when this subject is resumed—as in the ordinary course it presumably will be when the proposals of the Government come before the House—of dealing, I hope suitably, with these and other observations and criticisms that may be made. That occasion will, perhaps, be one in which I may ask your Lordships' indulgence with more relevance than on the very limited Question which has been put to me to-day. I have had prepared a detailed answer which refers to the specific points contained in the Question of the noble and learned Lord, and I will ask the leave of the House to read that answer which I think affords the information requested.
In accordance with the general scheme for the concentration of the R.I.C. prior 380 to disbandment Tipperary police barracks was evacuated on the 2nd inst. In view of the disturbed condition of this county in which the authority of the Provisional Government carries very little weight, the Provisional Government are not taking over evacuated barracks on evacuation; nevertheless it is considered undesirable to continue to occupy these barracks with comparatively small detachments of the in case a further Clonmel incident should occur. In this case, therefore, all readily transportable material was removed from the barracks, the premises were locked up and all but thirteen of the garrison proceeded to Dublin by train, taking with them the greater portion of the arms, etc.
Thirteen men were left behind to bring up the transport, and these left for Dublin on the 2nd inst. Immediately after leaving the barracks, fire was opened upon this party, which was returned by them. Firing from both sides continued for some time, in the course of which four of the police were wounded (Head Constable Davis fatally), and it is believed four of the attackers were wounded. After some time the police, who were largely out-numbered, surrendered. The wounded were conveyed by the attackers to Limerick Junction, and sent on by train to Dublin, and the remainder of the police were released, and they also proceeded to Dublin. The property lost, by the police on this occasion consisted of £160 in cash, 20 rifles, some revolvers, 2,000 rounds of ammunition, and four motor vehicles. Three members of the Royal Irish Constabulary have been arrested and will be tried by Court Martial on a charge of complicity with the attackers on this occasion.
It must be recognised that the position, both of the police and of the Provisional Government in this particular area—in which there is definite rebellion against the authority of the Provisional Government—is very difficult. The police have, in the present circumstances, neither the authority nor sufficient strength to crush the rebellion which took place at a time when they were in course of evacuation. This evacuation is now complete, and there is reason to hope that no further incidents of this kind will occur. As regards the Provisional Government, it is clear that they are no less anxious than the British Government to restore peace and order in this disaffected area. Their resources, however, are not, at the 381 moment sufficient, nor the circumstances propitious for definite aggressive action. They are, with the assistance of the British Government, expediting the formation, training and equipment of their own Defence Force, and there is every reason to believe that public opinion in. Ireland is consolidating itself behind the Provisional Government, and that this tendency is hastened by arrogant and high-handed acts such as are being committed by the recalcitrant section of the Irish Revolutionary Army in Tipperary and Limerick.
This is a short statement of the facts, but it will, I think, show that the situation is one on which, if I might offer advice to your 'Lordships, you would be well advised to reserve complete judgment until the findings of the Court Martial of which have spoken. I do not think it wise or right that I should say more at a time when these proceedings are still pending, and I will only advert in a very few moments to the general situation. The situation is, according to the best information of the Government, that at the present moment the authority of the Provisional Government is recognised over the greater part of Southern Ireland, but there are, at the same time, considerable districts in which the military forces that heretofore acknowledged allegiance to the Republic have refused to adhere to the Provisional Government, and there are two or three districts of which it is not an exaggeration to say that they are to-day in complete disaffection from the Provisional Government. The Provisional Government is sanguine enough to believe that, with the passage of a little time, they will be strong enough to deal with the rebels from their authority.
All this, of course, is full of anxiety for every one of us, but, if I am asked for my perfectly honest opinion, it is this, that bad and anxious as the situation is, I cannot see that it is not a gain that you have in Southern Ireland men who have hitherto been organised against us now, as far as one can see, honestly attempting to carry out their duty and their responsibility, and to put down this movement in the South of Ireland. I say plainly that, having once satisfied myself that we have treated them properly, I would far rather that they were undertaking that task than that we were, and I believe that if that task is effectively and successfully 382 carried out by them the fact that it should be done by them and not by us will have resulted in an economy of English lives, and will also, in the end, conduce to permanent peace in Ireland.
I did not wish to become involved in so general a discussion. I had confined myself in the first place to a written answer to the Question asked by the noble and learned Lord, but, my Lords, I must say plainly that, being unconscious myself of anything of which I either am ashamed or have any need to be ashamed in the course I have taken, and the views I have adopted upon the subject of Ireland, as long as I am assailed in this House either by the noble and learned Lord, or by anyone else, with invective and terms of contempt, and as long as those with whom I act are so assailed, I shall make such answer as occurs to me and as I deem adequate. When the debate is resumed in a more general form, as it will be next week on the Second Reading of the proposals we are bringing forward to carry out the Treaty, if your Lordships are good enough to allow me I shall attempt a complete restatement of the grounds which have led me to the conclusion I have formed, and by which I myself am content to stand.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYMy Lords, I did not intend to take part in this debate, and. I only say, in reference to the observations of the noble and learned Viscount, that whatever views the country may take as to the advisability of the Treaty—about which I pronounce no opinion, not having the omniscience of the noble and learned Viscount—I am quite sure that the country is thoroughly ashamed of the methods and the circumstances under which that Treaty was carried out. I rose only to remind the noble and learned Viscount that he has not answered the Question which my noble and learned friend put as to what steps are being taken by His Majesty's. Government to protect the lives of faithful officers of the Crown who are compelled to undergo such humiliation. The noble and learned Viscount told us that certain parts of Ireland are in rebellion against the Provisional Government, but he did not tell us what steps His Majesty's Government are taking.
I might, in particular, remind him that my noble and learned friend—or it might have been the noble Marquess—asked him what compensation was going to be given 383 to the widow and children of this constabulary officer who lost his life in the service of the Crown. I do not want to use very strong language, but that is an obligation, as it appears to me, of honour, not only upon the Provisional Government, but upon His Majesty's Government. I think your Lordships would wish to be assured that His Majesty's Government will look upon it as a debt of honour, and will see that whatever compensation is payable to this officer's widow and children is paid.
§ THE LORD CHANCELLORMy Lords, the noble Marquess has called my attention to an omission from my answer. I think I intended to deal with the matter. He says I have not answered the Question as to what steps are taken by His Majesty's Government to protect the lives of the faithful officers of the Crown who are compelled to undergo such humiliation. No particular steps were taken beyond what I have stated in the answer that I have read. What was done was that thirteen of the garrison were left armed to return to Dublin. There was not the slightest reason, as far as I am aware, to suppose that those thirteen men were in the least likely to be the subject of an attack, for in this district, and in contiguous districts, even smaller bodies of men have been left and the evacuation has proceeded peacefully. The noble Marquess will observe that I gave the impression that in the view of the authorities there was something significant about the matter and that it is to be made the subject of Court Martial proceedings, but I do not think it can be called reckless to leave thirteen armed men in the barracks as a final company.
As to what is to be done for the widow, the noble Marquess, as a very experienced Parliamentarian, will understand that I am very unlikely to know exactly the answer to his question, but I will tell him for what I will make myself responsible. During the past three anxious years we have made provision which has been considered adequate—it has not been the subject of complaint—for all those who have lost their lives among the police. The same terms will be given in this case. I agree entirely with what the noble Marquess says that no money compensation can meet such a case, but so far as money can meet it, I will undertake that it shall be adequately treated.