CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL. (Hansard, 19 July 1922)

§ THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (VISCOUNT PEEL)
My Lords, in moving that the House do resolve itself into Committee on this Bill I should like to say something about the procedure to be adopted. After the Second Reading was passed your Lordships desired to refer this Bill to a Select Committee. The Select Committee have operated freely upon the Bill, and have inserted a large number of Amendments, very much changing the Bill in many ways. For example, the Bill is now eleven or twelve pages as compared with five when it was originally introduced. I understand that there are two procedures that can be followed. One is that the Bill as amended by the Select Committee is simply moved and either accepted or rejected, and the other is that the particular Amendments are moved separately. There are precedents for both methods of procedure, I believe. I submit that it would be very convenient if the latter procedure were followed. Though, speaking from the point of view of the Government I might be able to accept some of the Amendments, it is very difficult indeed, not only for myself, though that does not matter, but for your Lordships to know what these particular Amendments are, and to disentangle them from the pages of a very complicated Bill.
I suggest that it would be very much clearer if the noble Lords concerned on the 624 Select Committee moved these Amendments separately, and I would then attempt to deal with them. There is another difficulty. There is a printed list of Amendments to be moved by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson. These Amendments are Amendments to the Amendments introduced into the Bill by the Select Committee, and therefore, if your Lordships do not know what the Amendments made by the Select Committee are, it would be difficult to appreciate the operation of Lord Carson's Amendments. For these reasons 1 suggest that these Amendments, which are set out in the Report of the Committee, should be moved seriatim. I beg to move.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE)
My Lords, the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill was good enough to consult me on this subject, and I have had the opportunity of discussing it with two of my noble friends who sat as members on the Select Committee. Though there are precedents both ways, I think the majority of them are in favour of the course proposed by the noble Viscount, Lord Peel. But I do not want to put this matter on the ground of precedent. I think we should adopt that course also from the point of view of convenience. The usual Question that I should have to put to your Lordships would be, "That the Amendments made in the Select Committee be agreed to," and it is usual (your Lordships have already done it this afternoon) to agree to them en bloc. I understand it is the desire of the noble Viscount to discuss these Amendments, and I think therefore it would be better to take them seriatim. They refer to the print of the Bill which was in your Lordships' hands before the Bill went to Select Committee. We then come to the Amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson. I have not been into them very carefully, but I think they are put down to the Bill as amended by the Select Committee.

§ LORD CARSON
There was no other way I could put them down. It was no ingenuity on my part, but the only possible thing that I could do.

THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE
I entirely agree; I was not complaining.
625 But, as a matter of convenience, I think it would be better to deal with all the Amendments to the Bill in one form, and then proceed with the Amendments to the Bill in a second form. That is an additional reason why I suggest that we should follow the course indicated.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I should feel great reluctance in offering any suggestions which were not in conformity with those made by the Lord Chairman, who knows about these matters. But I rather understood from the noble Viscount in charge of the Bill, that under the beneficent operation of the Select Committee the Bill has been expanded from four or five pages to eleven.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
From five to eleven.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Is a separate Question to be put from the Chair for every one of those Amendments which have been so inserted? If so, that would be a very long and laborious business.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
There are only twelve, I think.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
Some of them are very large.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
In print.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
Yes.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
If that is the better course I should not oppose it. The only question is this. I do not quite understand how the Amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson, are to be put. Perhaps the noble Earl would explain that.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
Certainly. What I suggest is that we should take first of all the Amendments made by the Select Committee and go through them in order. They all appear on pages 3 and 4 of the proceedings of the Select Committee. When those are finished with, we can take the Amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson, in the order in which they are printed on the Order Paper.

§ LORD CARSON
I am quite a novice in this House, but it seems to me to be a very inconvenient course to move as an Amendment something that is not on the Paper. It is a very difficult thing in this most complicated Bill, rendered far more complicated by being drawn in the ordinary way by reference to a number of other Acts, to follow what we are really talking about. One thing that has struck me. since I had the honour of becoming a member of your Lordships' House is how very difficult it is even on the ordinary procedure to follow the question upon which one has to bring one's mind to bear so as to try to do one's duty as a legislator. What I understand the noble Viscount proposes to do now is to move something of which we have had no Notice.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
No, I do not move. One of the noble Lords who were on the Committee would move. They are not my Amendments; they are the Amendments of the Select Committee, and they would be moved, I suppose, in the ordinary course by the Chairman, if he chose to do it.

§ LORD MUIR MACKENZIE
I must take exception to the statement that it is the ordinary course. I have never known such a thing to happen in this House.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I have followed what has been said by the Lord Chairman.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
With great respect to my noble friend, it is most difficult for us to follow the procedure suggested because we have only one copy of the Bill in our hands. There are two on the Table, I am informed, but there is only one in our hands. At any rate, the Bill that has been circulated is printed at length as the Select Committee have amended it. I should have thought the more usual practice would be to take the Bill as now printed, and then if the Government object to anything which the Select Committee have put into the Bill they would move to strike it cut again. That would be a simple plan. I do not think that the, noble Viscount desires to raise many points upon the Select Committee's Amendments. But if we are to go right through the Bill as if we were in original Committee and deal with everything the Select Committee have done, what was the good of having a Select Committee?
627 It is much easier to take the Amendments of the Select Committee, to assume that these very distinguished noble Lords, members of your Lordships' House, were well advised prima facie in putting them into the Bill, and if the Government do not agree, or if the noble and learned Viscount does not agree, let them move to alter the Bill again, and if they can persuade your Lordships to make the alteration, it can be done. I should have thought that for the less expert members of the House of Lords, among whom I count myself, that would be the much easier plan.

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
May I explain that I am only asking your Lordships to do what you have already done twice this afternoon. However, it is possible that your Lordships are not very familiar with Sir Henry Graham's valuable book, and I will read what he says— Where a Public Bill, after Second Heading, has been referred to a Select Committee, the Select Committee report it by their Chairman to the House, with Amendments, if any, and it is committed to a Committee of the Whole House. That is what your Lordships did. The Bill is printed as amended by the Select Committee, and the proposed Amendments are generally agreed to en bloc by the Committee of the Whole House, the Question being put— That the Amendments proposed by the Select Committee be agreed to

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
That is the ordinary practice?

THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES
Yes, the ordinary practice. Further Amendments may be made … That, I gather, refers to the Amendments put down by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson. Then the next paragraph says:— In strictness, any Select Committee Amendment which it is proposed to modify should be put first, and the Amendment of it should be formally moved in the ordinary way. … I understood from the noble Viscount, Lord Peel, that he objected to all the Amendments made in Select Committee. Therefore, I suggested that we should take them seriatim, in place of putting the usual Question, That the Amendments proposed by the Select Committee be agreed to.

§ VISCOUXT PEEL
I am not suggesting, far be it for me to suggest, that anything 628 that the Lord Chairman has said on this matter is not strictly accurate. I wish to refer only to my own statement. I do not think I said, at least I did not intend to say, that I necessarily objected to all the Amendments made in Select Committee; but I should prefer to have them discussed, I am bound to say, because I may be able to accept some of them. Some of them I certainly cannot accept from the point of view of the Government, because they lay fresh charges on the taxpayer, and some of them I am bound to object to because they do not mean anything, so far as I can understand. Therefore, I think it is only fair to your Lordships that those Amendments should be discussed in Committee. There is, I understand, a difficulty about the noble and learned Lord's Amendments, because I think they were only received to-day.

§ LORD CARSON
I handed them in yesterday. It was the first day on which I could do so. I could not get the Report before then.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I am not making the slightest complaint; I am only stating the facts to your Lordships. Subject to what the Lord Chairman says, I thought that the Amendments would be moved by the Select Committee one by one. There are not very many of them, but some of them are rather bulky in content. Then on each Amendment in its place the noble and learned Lord, if he saw fit, could move his own Amendment. If he cannot do that I have nothing more to say. Otherwise, I suppose they had better be moved afterwards. However, I strongly suggest to your Lordships that much the better course would be to follow the advice of the noble Earl, the Lord Chairman, that the Amendments should be dealt with separately, and then your Lordships will be able to see the relation of the Amendments not only to the Bill but also to the Amendments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Carson. Five very distinguished members of your Lordships' House were on this Committee, but there was no member of the Government on it.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Because they refused to serve.

§ VISCOUXT PEEL
No invitation was addressed to any member of the Government.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
An intimation was made to me that they refused to serve.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I do not know of any such intimation. I certainly know that no invitation was addressed to any member of the Government to serve on the Committee; but I am not dealing with that for the moment. I really do not understand how those of your Lordships who have not had the advantage of sitting on the Committee, can possibly deal with these rather complicated Amendments in any other way. The Bill was criticised very severely on the previous stage because it was so complicated. In many cases it is far more complicated now, and how noble Lords, learned or otherwise, can possibly appreciate the effect of these amendments unless they are dealt with separately I altogether fail to see.

§ LORD CARSON
As this is a very important measure, at least from my point of view, I hope that your Lordships will take a practical course. The Bill on the Table is printed—printed by the Government, I suppose, or by the order of somebody—as amended by the Select Committee. Therefore, you have the Bill complete with those Amendments, so that anybody who can read it can understand it. Surely, the proper course, and the feasible and practical course is for the Government to place Amendments upon the Paper to that to which they object in this Bill as amended, on Report, or whatever the technical process may be. That certainly would be the way in which it would be done in another place, and I think it is the only possible procedure by which the House can follow the debates. In that way the Bill will be amended. The Government will give us notice—they have given us no notice up to this—of what they object to, by putting down Amendments in black and white. The House can then discuss them in the ordinary way in Committee,
What does the noble Viscount propose? That you should take the copy of the Bill as reprinted with the Amendments in it, take the Minutes of Evidence given before the Select Committee, take out where you can Amendments that were suggested, and let the Select Committee, or one of the members of that Committee, move those Amendments here. That seems to me to be an extraordinary procedure. I 630 think your Lordships, when you proceed to deal with the Bill in that way, will find yourselves in great difficulties. We ought to know, before we enter into discussion, the Government's view of the Amendments of the Select Committee. The Committee have taken some trouble over this matter, and if we are not in a position to do the now, we might defer it till tomorrow or another day. The Royal Irish Constabulary are going to be disbanded under circumstances of which we are all aware, and you will be incurring considerable risk of doing a grave injustice if you are not careful.

THE EARL OF MAYO
The real truth is that this force has to be disbanded by the thirty-first of this month.

§ LORD CARSON
Why?

THE EARL OF MAYO
That is in the Bill. That is a very important matter, and I hope the suggestion of the noble Lord, the Chairman of Committees, will be adopted.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
I do not know what is the view of the Chairman of the Select Committee. He has not yet told us, but I would make this suggestion. I am sure that it is for the better understanding of the Bill if we take what is, after all, the more usual practice; although I quite agree, as the noble Lord, the Lord Chairman, has explained to us, that the other is an alternative, practice. I suggest that we should accept the Amendments of the Select Committee en bloc in one Question, and then the Government could, by deferring the remaining stages of Committee, or by re-committing the Bill, move what Amendments they like. The work of the Select Committee must be looked at as a whole. They have a Bill which they present to us as a whole, and we cannot very well judge of their work in detail. The process of putting the whole thing together with several different pieces of paper will, I am sure, only puzzle us. With the permission of the House when we get into Committee I would move that we accept the Amendments en bloc, and then re-commit the Bill.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I understand that your Lordships think it would be inconvenient, in the circumstances, to adopt the course that I indicated. My object 631 was to waste as little time, and to deal with the matter as rapidly, as possible. Your Lordships complained, I thought with some justice, that the Bill was an extremely complicated one when I introduced it. It is far more complicated now, and if your Lordships could not deal with the details then, I am certain that you cannot deal with them now. I understand that the noble and learned Lord opposite, Lord Carson, and the noble Marquess are very anxious that the Amendments suggested by the Government to the Report of the Committee should be placed on the Paper. If your Lordships insist upon that, I am quite ready to accede to it. I want to get the Bill through as quickly as possible, as it is obviously of great advantage that that should be done, but if your Lordships insist upon a degree of delay I will, of course, meet your Lordships' wishes. I will put down Amendments to the Amendments of the Select Committee, but I think that must be done in Committee, if I may say so to the noble Marquess.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
By all means recommit the Bill.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
There is a mass of details, and it would not be wise to pass over a stage.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I move that the Report be now received, and, in accordance with the arrangement which we have been discussing, that this Bill be recommitted.

THE MARQUESS OF ABERDEEN AND TEMAIR
Can the noble Viscount give an approximate date when the next stage will be taken?

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I must of course put the Amendments down.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
Perhaps the noble. Viscount will indicate what day he proposes to take the recommitment of the Bill.

§ VISCOUNT PEEL
I was conferring with my noble friend Lord Crawford.

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
I think your Lordships had better postpone the actual date till to-morrow. I will put the Bill down pro forma for to-morrow, but I do not think it will be possible to take it then.

THE EARL OF DESART
Will the noble Earl say definitely that the next stage will not be taken to-morrow?

THE EARL OF CRAWFORD
As the Amendments will have to be prepared and I handed in I do not think it is possible to proceed with the Bill to-morrow?