HL Deb 02 August 1922 vol 51 cc1078-9

Clause 1, page 2, lines 6 to 10, leave out subsection (3)

The Commons disagree to this Amendment but have made the following Amendments to the words so restored to the Bill:

Clause 1, page 2, line 8, after ("force") insert ("to which this subsection applies")

Clause 1, page 2, line 10, at end insert ("This subsection applies to any police force the expenses of which are defrayed in whole or in part out of moneys provided by Parliament or by any Parliament in Ireland or out of funds assisted by the Exchequer or by any Exchequer in Ireland.")

VISCOUNT PEEL

I move that this House doth not insist upon its Amendment and agrees with the Amendment made by the Commons. This is really a return to the proposals made by Lord Muir Mackenzie's Committee, which limited the number of cases in which the compensation allowance would be suspended when men joined other forces. The House of Commons suggest that we should go back to the considered judgment of the Select Committee, which was set up by your Lordships in order to consider the Bill.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment, and agrees with the Amendment made by the Commons.—(Viscount Peel.)

THE EARL OF DESART

My Lords, I think this involves a question of privilege, and therefore I shall not oppose the Commons Amendment. It is quite true that this Amendment, in the form which it has now assumed on its return from the House of Commons, is that which was adopted by the Select Committee, of which I was a member, and we thought as a body that if the prohibition, which was a very ordinary prohibition, was to be adopted it should follow the usual rule and should not operate unless the police force which the officer joined was one which was paid out of or to which there was a contribution from the public funds. That was what the Committee reported to this House. My noble and learned friend, Lord Carson, moved an Amendment that the whole clause in the original Bill, which merely affected the pension if an officer joined any police force, should be struck out altogether. There was a debate on that in which I supported my noble and learned friend because I thought there were very strong arguments in favour of his Amendment. We thought, in the first place, that these men were in such an exceptional position that precedents did not and ought not to apply to their case. And, in the second place, that although a man cannot take a position in a police force wholly or partly paid out of public funds, he can take any other office under the public, and, therefore, the anomaly remains. That was the argument we pressed on behalf of the adoption of Lord Carson's Amendment. We cannot, of course, press it now, but subject to that, the Commons have improved on the original Bill in that they have removed part of the penalty, so to say.

VISCOUNT PEEL

My Lords, I should like to say that that arrangement does not act as a deterrent, because no fewer than 1,200 men have already joined the Ulster force; I have not the figures, but a large number have joined our own force, and a considerable number have joined the Palestine force.

THE EARL OF DESART

I do not think I used the word "deterrent."

VISCOUNT PEEL

No, it was my word.

THE EARL OF DESART

Although they cannot join a police force and retain their pensions, they can join any other public force and act, for instance, as warders; but they know their own job better, probably.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I do not know that these constables will be aware of this, and I dare say it will come as a great shock to them when they find out what is the effect of their having taken service in a police force.

VISCOUNT PEEL

I will put that right at once. I have stated already, and I will state it again, that all these provisions have been fully explained and that the men who join these forces are fully aware of all the conditions under which they join them. Therefore, the noble Marquess need not have any fear in that regard.

On Question, Motion agreed to.