§ LORD ISLINGTON rose to ask His Majesty's Government to state what progress has been made to provide training for disabled soldiers and sailors; how many have applied, and how many are now being afforded such training; what arrangements are being made to secure disabled men when trained appropriate and permanent occupations.
§ The noble Lord said: My Lords, before my noble friend replies on behalf of the Government, I would ask your Lordships to allow me to make one or two brief observations by way of indicating the reasons that have influenced me in placing this Question on the Paper. From information that I have received from many people who are 526 and have been connected with the various War Pensions Committees, I hear that it has been alleged that in many parts of the country large numbers of disabled soldiers and sailors who have applied for training facilities in industries appropriate to their impaired state of health have received no reply to that application, and it is further said that this lack of response on the part of the Government to the application is causing great discouragement, mingled to no small extent, and naturally so, with discontent to those concerned, their relations and their friends. Many of the applications that have been made by disabled soldiers and sailors date back as far as April and May in this year. I cannot, of course vouch—and I do not suggest for a moment that I do—for the accuracy of these statements that are made, except in so far as the reliability of the source from which I have been able to obtain them.
§ These Pension Committees until April of this year were the official bodies to whom all applications were made, and, as your Lordships probably are aware, on May I the whole of this subject of dealing with the training and subsequent occupation of the disabled soldiers and sailors was transferred from the Ministry of Pensions to the Ministry of Labour, and with that the Pensions Committees ceased also to be the bodies to whom applications were made. I have been told, and this is one of the chief reasons why I have put the question down, that during the immediate previous months very large numbers of these applicants to the War Pensions Committees for training continued to go and ask, and that no reply has been made to them. This undoubtedly points to the fact that many of these cases have not been dealt with throughout the country. It is, therefore, of the Ministry of Labour that I now ask this question, and I hope that my noble friend may have been furnished with so precise a reply that it may give satisfaction to a very large circle of the public who are interested in this subject.
§ In the first place, I would ask how many in all have applied for such training; how many have had their applications considered; and also what steps are now being taken to inquire into those who have applied and have not yet been replied to? I venture to say it is a matter of very great importance on the ground of humanity and of natural gratitude in the first place, and, in the second place, on grounds of policy, 527 that no effort should be spared to deal, with attention and sympathy, with each individual case of an injured man who applies for training. After all, these men constitute a first charge on the State in regard to care and attention. They have suffered seriously, and many of them have suffered permanently in the defence of the country. Undoubtedly, nobody has recognised this more than the Government, who have emphasised it by urging and inviting every disabled man to seek their assistance.
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The matter is so important that I would read one of many circulars that have been issued and circulated broadcast throughout the country and undoubtedly have been read and imbibed by all those who are in this condition. This is the concluding paragraph of a circular issued by the Director of Training, Major Robert Mitchell, in the year 1917 and this, I understand, has been published in the Press so that all have had an opportunity of seeing it and reading it—
That is the root of the whole matter. It is no good for you when you are discharged to seek out the first job you come across. It may have good pay for a time when labour is restricted, but you must look ahead. When the war is over and the labour market becomes crowded, men with temporary jobs and the unskilled labourer will be shouldered out. It is the man who has had training, who has a trade at his fingers' end, who will then have the best chance of keeping his situation. So do not be attracted by the first job that offers good pay, but make up your mind to prepare for the future. All sections of the community want to help you. Many of the trade unions are ready to welcome you—the employers' associations are offering to employ you—willing helpers are waiting to teach you, and the nation is offering to support you during training.
My Lords, these men have seen and read many circulars similar to this, and it is due, undoubtedly, to these appeals eloquently urging men to apply for assistance that masses of applications have been made for training to local War Pensions Committees.
§ On November 5 a question of this character was asked in another place, and the Minister of Labour, in the course of his reply, gave the number of disabled men now in training, the number that had completed training, and the number that are awaiting training. But in answering the question which was put to him as to the number who had applied, he said the total number of applicants under the first head was not available, and he went on to say "12,000 disabled men are now in training, 20,000 528 have completed training, and 20,000 are awaiting training." That in all, being about 52,000, is on the face of it but a fraction of those throughout the country who have been injured in their different degrees, and have applied for training and for assistance in some appropriate occupation. I hope that the Ministry of Labour will be in a position to give a return of the numbers who have so applied throughout the country for the provision of training, and also the prospect that there is in the immediate future of providing training for those who have not yet been provided with it. It may be said by my noble friend, on behalf of the Ministry of Labour, that the transfer only took place in May from the Ministry of Pensions to that Department, and that it is difficult, therefore, to estimate the number. I venture to say that a departmental answer of that character will be of very little satisfaction to these men throughout the country who have been so urgently invited, with such emphasis, to come to the Government for assistance and to obtain such training.
§ There is one other point I would like to ask, and that is in regard to the facilities that are being established and arranged for after-employment when the men have been trained. I hope that my noble friend has been furnished with sufficient information on this important subject to state the general trend of policy of the Ministry of Labour in regard to this question. Are these men being placed in their proper categories? I would like to ask, as I know there is deep concern in the country, to what extent facilities are being granted, in the first place, to those whose disablement is not sufficiently severe to prevent their taking an economic part in the profession they have been trained for? That is, of course, the easiest category. Then there is the second point—to what extent facilities for training and for after-occupation have been provided for those whose disablement is so serious and permanent that they can only hope hereafter to take an incomplete part in the profession they are found capable of engaging in. I understand, as regards the second category I have mentioned, that it represents 60 per cent. of the men on the books of the Disabled Soldiers' Department of the Employment Exchange. These are the men on the Pensions Disability List ranging from 20 to 70 per cent. of disability.
§ It would be of advantage also if my noble friend could indicate to the House and to 529 the country what attitude the trade unions are taking in regard to these problems, and to what extent and on what terms they are now co-operating with the Exchanges and the Ministry of Labour to provide in their industries for these men in their varying degrees of capacity. The Out-of-Work Donation Fund, according to present instruction, is due to cease in March of next year, and privates in the Army in the category of 20 to 70 per cent. disability pension will only have at their disposal, when the out-of-work donation ceases, an amount ranging from 8s. to 28s. a week. I think, therefore, that this is a very important point to consider in the arrangements that are being made in regard to finding employment for these men. I sincerely hope that my noble friend may be furnished with a precise statement in regard to this subject, because I am convinced in my own mind that there is an immense amount of anxiety and of unrest in the different pension areas of the country owing to the very large number of men who, upon the direct invitation of the Government, have made their appeals for training and have not hitherto had any response whatever.
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTMy Lords, I am sure that we shall all agree with the sympathetic tone in the short but pithy speech of my noble friend; nor does the Labour Department or the Government under-rate in any degree the obligation of first importance which we are under to these gallant men. As not infrequently happens, my noble friend has asked me for definite information on three heads in his Question, and in his speech he has travelled over a certain amount of ground. In the course of my reply I will endeavour to follow him in what he has said and to give him such answers as I am able with the information that is before me.
Lord Islington desired information as to what part the trade unions had taken in regard to these training arrangements. As my noble friend knows, every trade union has a central executive and local branches. The central executive was represented on the main trades Advisory Committees for Training, and these Committees drew up the schemes for training. Practically all central executives have shown and given willing co-operation and help, but I cannot say that all the local branches have been equally helpful. My noble friend will agree, in fact I think he asserted it, that it is 530 most important to have this trade union co-operation. For instance, our not having it in one particular branch, I think it is the engineering branch—although there are some local committees which have assisted—has prevented us in great measure from training men in engineering. In what I have to say I hope your Lordships will allow me to point out that we have considerable difficulties with which to contend—namely, in providing enough and suitable factories and workshops for this training. There is a great need for instructional factories, because these men require to be well grounded in the trades they are to follow before being engaged in a private workshop or factory, which is run, of course, for production. Every effort is being made to supplement the factories and workshops which exist already, but it is a difficult matter. Certain factories have been taken over from the Ministry of Munitions, but many for a variety of reasons are unsuitable, for instance, as to the position and locality of those which were in use in war time; because, as your Lordships will readily understand, those used for the manufacture of explosives had to be in isolated positions so as not to be dangerous to the general public. I think my memory is correct that great stress was laid upon this in the evidence received before a committee of which Sir George Murray was president, and on which I had the honour of a seat, showing how difficult it was to acquire the necessary factories and workshops.
The classes of men for whom this training is necessary I may divide into three—the agricultural, the professional, and the industrial. On behalf of the Board of Agriculture I have been furnished with a statement and figures which, perhaps, your Lordships will allow me to read. There were 3,197 applications for training received up to the first instant, and these have been dealt with as follows: placed in training, 1,026; approved but not yet placed, 1,206; not approved, 187; withdrawn by applicants, 337; outstanding for interview, 440. Some 900 men are at present in training, the remaining 126 having left on completion of their course or having given up training for other reasons. The normal period of training is one year, but this period is extended, in approved cases, up to a limit of two years. It is the policy of the Board to provide training at "centres" as far as possible, where the men will receive practical training in such 531 forms of agriculture as are best suited to their particular needs, and where they will be given lectures, etc., by the County Agricultural Educational Staff. Where specialised forms of training, for example, poultry farming, are required, arrangements are made to place the men with approved farmers. About 50 per cent. of those at present in training are at centres. Twenty-one centres, with accommodation varying from ten to fifty men at each centre, are at present in operation, and further centres are being established as rapidly as possible. The Board have formulated a scheme for the provision of cottage holdings for disabled men who have passed through their training successfully. This scheme has been forwarded to the Ministry of Pensions to be placed before the Treasury.
As regards the professional division, those men are dealt with by the Appointments Committee and the educational departments in England, Wales and Scotland. It is to the industrial division to which my noble friend refers, and for which the Industrial Department of the Ministry of Labour is responsible. The figures quoted by my noble friend are substantially those with which I have been furnished. On the waiting list there are: applications, examined but not disposed of, amounting to 20,000 in England, Scotland and Wales; about 13,000 are in training in private workshops and factories; 20,000 are already trained. That makes about 53,000 in all, of whom 33,000 have been or are being dealt with. As the schemes develop it is estimated that they may receive some 40,000 more applications.
§ VISCOUNT BURNHAMHow many in technical institutes?
§ VISCOUNT SANDHURSTI am afraid I cannot tell my noble friend that. As I think I said just now, the delay is due to want of facilities. For instance, it was suggested that use might be made of Gretna for the establishment of training institutions; but you have to consider that if you ask a man to go from the Midlands, or from the South of England, or even, perhaps, from the North of England, to a great distance off, he may not want to go. Then, again, he has to be brought back from the centre to which he goes; and in addition to that, before he can get employment, the would-be employer besides getting his certificates, or what answers to what I 532 will call the man's paper value, wants to see the intending employee, and the difficulty of distance accentuates the trouble.
Having said that, I may say that the spirit of employers, as regards employing these men, has been found for the most part to be very good indeed. As to these training centres—perhaps I repeat myself, but I wish to lay stress upon this point—it is extremely difficult to acquire empty buildings which are suitable for these purposes. Every effort, however, has indeed been made, and progress has been made also. For example, 12,800 additional places have been provided since May 1, though they are not vet all thoroughly equipped. Here again we must remember that, as well as getting the factories and the workshops, there is a certain amount of machinery, as noble Lords will understand, and that takes some little time to deliver.
With reference to what my noble friend said about there being no replies to many of these applications, perhaps it is hardly necessary for me to insist upon this—that in this immense organisation a very large number of people have to be engaged on the work. The Pensions Committees had the work in hand until the end of July or beginning of August. Pensions Committees are still responsible for pensions and medical treatment, while the Employment Exchanges are responsible for finding jobs and paying out-of-work denations. These two bodies would refer applicants to the Divisional Director of Training who is responsible for finding the training and arranging with the private employers. In different areas there may be differences of detail in the arrangements. I may add that the Employment Exchanges and the Pensions Committees have had explained to them, and have been directed, what they are to do in regard to applications in order that replies can be given as promptly as possible.
As I have said, while the administrative machinery is there, the factories and other requirements are not yet complete. It is possible that the dissatisfaction to which my noble friend refers may be due, not so much to there being no reply, but there may be disappointment owing to the reasons given why, or the fact that, the immediate action desired cannot be taken, because of the want of accommodation of which I have spoken. As my noble friend knows the training in each staple trade is supervised by a Trade Committee, half of whom are 533 employers and half workmen, and the workmen are nominees of the trade unions. There are this Central Committee for each trade and also local Committees of each training centre for that trade. The men cannot be put in training except with the approval of these local Committees.
With regard to the final question on the Paper, as to what arrangements are being made to secure disabled men, when trained, proper and permanent occupation, it is difficult to speak definitely. We rely upon these local Trade Committees plus the Employment Exchanges and their local Committees and the manager of these training centres, whose business it is to interest local employers. I think my noble friend referred to what he called the economic side of the question. I presume by that he meant wages. As my noble friend knows no doubt, when a man goes into an institution he receives a certain maintenance allowance and then gets his pay at an increasing rate in proportion to his increasing proficiency, and to this arrangement the trade unions have agreed. In regard to finding places for these men, I may say that the Royal Proclamation, which was issued a month or two ago, has given very material assistance indeed. Those are the answers that I beg to give to my noble friend's Questions. I can assure him that the Minister for Labour is by no means behind him and your Lordships in his most anxious desire to hasten matters forward and to do all he can to assist by training these gallant and deserving men.