HL Deb 22 December 1919 vol 38 cc505-10

Page 6, line 36 to 41 inclusive, leave out: ("(ii) any compensation for injury done to or depreciation in the selling value of the land comprised in the scheme, or of any estate whereof such land forms part, except in so far as the same arises from injury done to or depreciation in the letting value of the land or estate; or ")

Page 7, line 6, at end insert: ("(iii) any compensation for injury done to or depreciation in the selling value of the remainder of the estate of which the land comprised in the scheme forms part, except in so far as the same arises from injury done to or depreciation in the letting value of such remainder").

The Commons disagree with these Amendments, but propose the following Amendments to the Bill in lieu thereof, viz.:— Clause 6, page 3, line 35, after ("shall") insert ("in the first instance") Clause 9, page 8, line 9, at end insert ("(g) Where any landlord interested represents to the Secretary for Scotland that a prepared scheme ought not to be confirmed, the Secretary may, before giving his consent to the scheme, refer the same to the Land Court for inquiry and report").

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, it might perhaps be convenient, first of all, to get rid of the small points, and then your Lordships can consider the main point of disagreement with another place. In Clause 9, on page 4, in line 39, your Lordships inserted the words— Provided that, in considering the relative suitability of land, the Board shall have regard to the probable effect of a scheme upon the burden of rates in the locality concerned. I saw no particular objection to that, and I see no particular objection to it now, though I do not think it serves any very useful purpose. But it was pointed out in the House of Commons that it is not very artistic to select one thing which everybody sees must be taken into consideration, particularly when you do not select the point which is necessarily the most important. The reasons given by the House of Commons are briefly that the effect of this scheme on rating must, as every one will see, be considered in every case, and to give an express direction on one and not necessarily the most important of these points is not very happy. I do not gather from those of your Lordships who speak with knowledge of Scottish subjects, that this was necessarily a point to which much importance was attached by them, and I shall therefore move that your Lordships do not insist upon your Amendment. In making this Motion I might remind your Lordships that this is the only case of all the Amendments that were made by this House to which the Commons have returned an explicit negative, and I hope your Lordships will assent to this course.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

THE EARL OF KINTORE

In view of the urgency for this measure, I doubt if any of the noble Lords from Scotland will desire further to press their objections to what they and I consider to be the vicious principle now sought to reembody in Clause 9. We are, indeed, much too anxious to see those of our men to whom the country owes everything and who desire to be placed upon the laud speedily settled upon it, to wish to do anything to wreck this Bill or to imperil its passage, however keenly we may and do regret that, in that part of it which deals with compensation and kindred matters, the Scottish landowners, in our opinion, are not treated with ordinary fairness. We have endeavoured to explain the reason of our dissatisfaction. We have made the only protest possible in this House, and I think we must leave it at that.

But, my Lords, in one matter satisfaction was not denied us. We were afforded an opportunity, of which there have been several previous ones, of admiring the versatility and nimbleness which the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack displayed in his conduct of a somewhat contentious Bill in the Committee stage, at a time when, by his own admission, he was only imperfectly aware of the contents and scope of that Bill. In one respect his task was easy. When he implored us to agree that the proceedings and methods of the Scottish Land Courts were capable of improvement, we eagerly responded, for the simple and sufficient reason that in the beginning and for some time afterwards nothing by any accident could have been worse. In another regard the noble and learned Lord's task was so difficult that, so far as I remember, he did not essay it; it was to give some adequate explanation of the reasons for any differentiation in the law as between English landowners and Scottish landowners to the serious disadvantage of the latter. In view of the fair promises given both by the Prime Minister and by Mr. Bonar Law, this is somewhat of a disagreeable lesson to us. But it is mitigated in this instance, I am glad to think, by the reflection that if we are to suffer, we are to suffer in a good cause. For that reason and on that ground only, to the Question put I, for my part, shall say "Content."

THE DUKE OF SUTHERLAND

My Lords, there are two alternatives before the House to-night: either to insist upon your Amendments or to pass the Bill with those Amendments that have been accepted by the House of Commons. Let us consider for a moment what would be the result of the first alternative. The Bill will be wrecked and thrown away, the pledges of the Prime Minister to the ex-Service men cannot be kept, and land settlement in Scotland will be left in a most unsatisfactory condition. It is extremely dangerous at the present moment to obtain such a result in such a manner. It would be most ill-advised to cause the death of this Bill which is eagerly awaited by all the people of Scotland. Great indignation would be created in the country north of the Tweed by the rejection of this measure. It is a most undesirable moment to effect such a result when unity between all classes is essential. It could be easily twisted to show how landlords scheme to fill their pockets at the expense of ex-Service men and to prevent them getting the land they have fought for so nobly.

It has been said that, having sold my land, I am not interested in this Bill. But, my Lords, that is not the case. I still retain nearly 300,000 acres of Highland property, and therefore I think I am as fully interested in this measure as other landlords. None the less I intend to support the measure in its present form as it has returned from the House of Commons. The alternative is that it would be thrown away and the people of Scotland would suffer. The Secretary for Scotland in the House of Commons has already accepted several considerable and important Amendments, and I do not think we could expect him to go further than he has gone.

The main Amendment with which the House of Commons has disagreed is that regarding compensation for loss of capital value, and I do not think it would be possible, were this Amendment allowed, to settle many ex-Service men on the land. The cost of the land would be so great that the necessary amount of land would not be obtained to carry out schemes on a large and generous scale. The proviso inserted in place of this Amendment is, I think, a very reasonable one. Let me read to your Lordships some statements made by Mr. Smillie in the speech he delivered at Newcastle on Saturday night, in his campaign for the nationalisation of mines. Mr. Smillie said— The claim of the nation should be for the land as well as for the coal. There had been promises of providing land for ex-soldiers who wished to settle on it, and arrangements were made to settle ex-soldiers on land in Canada, New Zealand, and any place on God's earth except their own native land. My Lords, by passing this Bill to-night you will successfully repudiate such remarks from such people.

On Question, Motion agreed to.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

In calling your Lordships' attention to the next and only other point upon which difference arises, we are concerned with page 6, Clause 9, lines 36 to 41 inclusive, and your Lordships consequentially moved there to leave out the sub-clause between those lines. Your Lordships inserted at the end of line 6 "(iii) any compensation for injury done to or depreciation in the selling value of the remainder of the estate of which the land comprised in the scheme forms part, except in so far as the same arises from injury done to or depreciation in the letting value of such remainder." The Commons, as your Lordships will see, have disagreed with those Amendments and propose the following Amendment to the Bill in lieu thereof: Clause 6, page 3, line 35, after "shall" insert "in the first instance;" Clause 9, page 8, line 9, at end insert" (g) Where any landlord interested represents to the Secretary for Scotland that a prepared scheme ought not to be confirmed, the Secretary may, before giving his consent to the scheme, refer the same to the Land Court for inquiry and report."

As I anticipated when the matter was under discussion in your Lordships' House, this Amendment was moved at the instance of the noble Duke to draw attention to what he conceived to be a matter in respect of which he and his friends thought there were grounds of complaint. If I am right in supposing that this was the perfectly legitimate object the noble Duke had in mind, he has satisfied that object, though his purpose has not been found practicable of attainment. The matter has been made the subject of discussion in this House, and it was discussed recently in the House of Commons. There was no division even upon the immediate point which is now under discussion, and Sir George Younger—who has great experience in these matters, as noble Lords know, and who is certainly not out of sympathy with the point expressed by noble Lords in this House—speaking on the same debate in the House of Commons said— The whole difficulty has arisen because of the blunder of the Board of Agriculture in putting small holders in unsuitable places and refusing offers of land which was suitable for small holdings. We do not want to see these mistakes made again. I hope the present Amendment will be disagreed with and that the Amendment of my right hon. friend will be accepted. No Scottish Member in the House of Commons expressed dissent from the Motion made on behalf of the Government by the Secretary for Scotland, and I for one should feel very great surprise if, after having attained the principal object of getting a discussion upon these matters, any noble Lord would be prepared to risk a Bill of such enormous public importance on lines which would revive a difference between the two Houses.

Moved, That this House doth not insist upon the said Amendment.—(The Lord Chancellor.)

THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH

In regard to what the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack has said, there was no intention whatever of jeopardising this Bill. Lord Kintore has pointed out our objections, and I agree with what he has said.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

My Lords, the Amendment inserted by the Commons has been put in the Bill in the hope that it may supply some alleviation in cases where anxiety is genuinely felt that a scheme will affect injuriously the position of a landlord. If any interested landlord goes to the Secretary for Scotland and says that on the merits—general or particular—this scheme ought not to be confirmed, the Secretary before giving his consent may in his discretion refer the matter to the Land Court for inquiry and report. As your Lordships know, in all these cases where functions are committed to the Secretary it is contemplated that if a noble Lord makes a case which genuinely raises doubt as to whether he is being reasonably and fairly treated, a case which distinguishes it from the ordinary case, the Secretary would be desirous, as we must all admit, to inquire into the matter. I hope your Lordships will take the view that this Amendment affords some security that no landlord in Scotland will be made the victim of ill-considered or arduous schemes.

On Question, Motion agreed to.