HL Deb 08 December 1915 vol 20 cc572-6

LORD HAVERSHAM rose to ask the Paymaster-General—

  1. 1. Whether he can state the amount of saving, weekly, monthly and yearly, effected by the reduction of the ration to the troops in the field.
  2. 2. Whether he can state the monthly saving effected by the reduction of the pay for motor lorry drivers from 6s. to 1s. 2d. per day.
  3. 3. Whether he is not of opinion that the introduction of two business men from the large provision stores in London into the Quartermaster-General's Department would result in many savings similar to the foregoing.
    4. 573
  4. 4. Whether any part Of the separation allowance, now bringing the family income above the breadwinner's former earnings, might not be saved for him and issued on his return to civil employ.

The noble Lord said: My Lords, I beg to ask my noble friend the Paymaster-General the Questions standing in my name. With regard to the first Question I do not think he will have any difficulty whatever in replying because the information sought has already been given in substance in another place. Therefore although my Question asks for the figures a little more in detail, I apprehend that they are all in the War Office.

My second Question refers to motor lorry drivers. They are the subject of the most extraordinary contract which to my mind ever was made. These men do not go into the firing line. They operate behind in perfect safety, and they require very little mechanical skill to be able to drive these motor lorries. They have been engaged at a rate of pay which is six or seven times more than that of the men in the firing line. The leading man with the lorry gets 7s. 6d. a day and the other two men 6s. The result of that has been that in the first place—and I have this on good authority—it has entirely disorganised the industry at home. Only the other day I heard that a man was taken for service abroad at three guineas a week for driving a motor. The opinion of the Department of the Quartermaster-General upon the matter is obvious, because they have reduced the 7s. 6d.and 6s a day to 1s. 2d. I know it is a very great difficulty with the Quartermaster-General's Department because they engage these men, and the only way out of the difficulty that I can see is this. My noble friend might call upon the Quartermaster-General for a Return of the many motor lorry drivers now employed, and then those who are working at this absurd rate of pay could be struck off and there should be taken on only those at the 1s. 2d. a day rate. The loss to the public as matters stand now is enormous.

That brings me to my third Question, in which I ask my noble friend whether he is not of opinion that the introduction of two business men from the large provision stores in London into the Quartermaster General's Department would result in many savings. I am assured that there is an enormous loss, and it is obvious there is, with regard to one part of the rations. For many years the whole of the meat and bread for the soldiers at home and abroad has been found direct by the Government and is delivered to them by the Army Service Corps. That is not so with regard to the grocery ration. The grocery ration includes everything—tobacco, and everything a man wants, Here there is introduced the contractor, and that is what causes the cost to be as high as it is. I am told that if the contractor is got rid of the cost of the grocery ration would be very appreciably lowered. I believe that if my noble friend took up this matter he could save at least £1,000,000 and perhaps more, and the men would not suffer in the least.

My fourth Question relates to separation allowances. There are none of us who do not know the extraordinary effect that these enormous separation allowances have been having in the East-end of London. All I ask is that they should not be wasted now. I have had something to do with these allowances, and in most cases the woman, who has not now to feed her husband, gets 5s. or 6s. a week more than she did when her husband was at home. We cannot doubt what the result of that is. The small shops in the East-end and the public-houses are benefiting considerably, but I doubt very much whether the women are benefiting. I want my noble friend to see whether he cannot set apart say 2.s. 6d. of the separation allowance—not to be taken away from the man, but put in the Public Savings Bank so that he may receive it when he comes back from the Front. Whether we like it or not, we are perfectly certain to have to support these men until they get into civil employment again. Here we have an opportunity of saving something for them, so that they can begin with a small capital. Half-a-crown a week with a small rate of interest would mount up to something appreciable for the man when he came home. If my noble friend could see his way to do this it would be of great benefit to the families and to the soldiers also when they return home.

LORD NEWTON

my Lords, the answer to the first part of my noble friend's Question is that the saving effected by the reduction of the meat ration may be estimated roughly at £3,500 a day. The second part of the noble Lord's Question refers to motor drivers. On a previous occasion I explained that this high rate was fixed before the war in conjunction with the Treasury, and that therefore it appeared to me that there would be considerable difficulty in now altering it. My noble friend is not correct in assuming, as he apparently does, that the pay of these drivers has been reduced to 1s. 2d. a day. The point is this, that the 6s. men who were engaged in virtue of the arrangement I mentioned with the Treasury were looked upon and engaged as expert drivers. The present practice, I am informed, is to engage untrained men at the rate of 1s. 2d. a day and to train them to the level of the expert, and I believe it is a fact that at the present moment it is possible to find motor drivers who are ready to accept the lower pay. Whether that is in consequence of the present effort with regard to recruiting I am unable to say, but I have heard that there is much less difficulty now in obtaining men at the lower rate. My noble friend suggests that I should go to the Quartermaster-General and ask for a Return of these motor drivers, and he appears to think there will be no difficulty about it. I can assure my noble friend that he greatly over-rates my power or influence at the War Office. I strongly surmise that if I went to the Quartermaster-General or any other high official there with a request of this character I should meet with a very discouraging reception. I would suggest to my noble friend, therefore, that if he wants information on the subject he had better move for a Return himself.

With regard to the third part of the Question—the introduction of two business men from the large provision stores in London into the Quartermaster-General's Department—this matter of the introducticn of civilians has been frequently dealt with both in this House and in another place, and if I am not mistaken my noble friend the Leader of the House made a speech only a few days ago in regard to this particular question. I take it that Lord Haversham had in mind when he framed this particular inquiry the Ministry of Munitions, where civilians are employed inside the Office; but I may point out that the Ministry of Munitions is a completely new institution, and it was formed for the purpose of organising and co-ordinating the various industries in the country. The War Office stands on a perfectly different footing. Its administration is entirely different from the administration of the Ministry of Munitions, and in the opinion of the War Office authorities it has been found preferable to take the opinion and advice of civilians outside the Office than to employ them within the Office itself.

As to the fourth portion of my noble friend's Question regarding separation allowances, I am prepared to admit that his suggestion is theoretically admirable. At the same time I see considerable difficulty in putting it into practice. It is open to anybody receiving a separation allowance to practise economy and to save, but I must remind my noble friend that these separation allowances were not awarded for the purpose of inculcating or encouraging thrift but for the purpose of enabling these people to meet their current expenditure. The view of the War Office is—it is not, I know, a view which is shared by everybody here—that in the average case the separation allowance is not more than sufficient for the purpose. As the latter portion of the Question appears to suggest a comparison between the earnings of the breadwinner before the war and the amount at present being drawn in separation allowance, I am instructed to remind the noble Lord that this comparison does not take account of the rise in the cost of food, fuel, and other necessaries.

House adjourned at ten minutes before Seven o'clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.