HL Deb 12 March 1912 vol 11 cc391-400

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.

Moved, That the House do now resolve itself into Committee.—(Earl Stanhope.)

On Question, Motion agreed to.

House in Committee accordingly.

[The EARL OF DONOUGHMORE in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

Extent of Act.

1. This Act shall extend and apply to the administrative county of London and to those parts of the administrative counties of Essex, Hertfordshire, Kent, and Surrey (exclusive of the county borough of Croydon) to which the provisions of the Disorderly Houses Act, 1751, relating to music and dancing licences applied.

THE PAYMASTER-GENERAL (LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS) moved, after the word " of "["and to those parts of the administrative counties of"] to insert "Buckinghamshire" and to leave out the words "exclusive of " and to insert" and of the county borough of West Ham and. "The noble Lord said: The object of this Amendment and of some subsequent Amendments which are consequential is to bring within the scope of this useful piece of legislation the whole of the district included within the twenty-mile radius from the City of Westminster. I think the value of the Bill would be very much destroyed if an exception were made as to the borough of Croydon and a small piece of Buckinghamshire. The position would then be this, that there would be three Acts of Parliament dealing with this subject applying to the same district. There would be the old Act of 1751, which would not be repealed in respect of Croydon and this part of Buckinghamshire; the Middlesex Act of 1894, and then, if this Bill passes, there would be this Act. There is no reason, so far as I know, why Croydon should be treated separately, and as no argument has been advanced for such separate treatment I hope your Lordships will see fit to include the whole of the twenty-mile radius.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 7, after the first ("of") insert ("Buckinghamshire"), and leave out ("exclusive of") and insert ("and of the county borough of West Ham and").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

EARL STANHOPE

The London County Council, for whom I am acting in this matter, have naturally no objection to the noble Lord's Amendment. But I wish to point out that as far as Buckinghamshire is concerned it is really a minor matter, because I am given to understand that there is not, at present at any rate, a single building in that county which conies under the Act of 1751. The reason why the borough of Croydon was left out was, as I stated on Second Reading, that the borough council had made other arrangements and did not wish to upset thorn by having, a new Act. Naturally the London County Council do not object to Croydon being put into the Bill, but it is possible that at another stage of the Bill the authorities of Croydon may petition against it if they are now included.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

The next Amendment is a purely drafting one. It is better to state expressly the area; otherwise it is necessary for a person reading the Bill to refer to the Act of 1751.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 6, leave out front ("Croydon") to the end of the clause and insert ("which are within twenty miles of the Cities of London and Westminster").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

I move to leave out the words "exclusive of the county borough of West Ham. "An administrative county does not include a county borough. Therefore it is unnecessary to insert these words.

Amendment moved— Page 1, lines 13 and 14, leave out ("exclusive of the county borough of West Ham").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

The next Amendment is consequential.

Amendment moved— Page 1, line 15, after ("West Ham") insert ("and the county borough of Croydon").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

Music and Dancing Licences.

3.—(1) Premises, whether licensed or not for the sale of wines, spirits, beer, or other fermented or distilled liquors, shall not be kept or used for public dancing, singing, music, or other public entertainment of the like kind without a licence first obtained from the licensing authority for the purpose or purposes for which the same respectively are to be kept or used.

(2) The licensing authority may grant licences, to such persons as they think fit, to keep or use premises for all or any of the purposes aforesaid, upon such terms and conditions, and subject to such restrictions, as they by the respective licences determine.

(3) The licensing authority may transfer any such licence to such person as they may think fit.

(4) Any person to whom the licensing authority may have refused to grant or transfer a licence to keep or use premises as aforesaid shall not be entitled to again apply for the grant or transfer of a licence in respect of the same premises within three months from the date of such refusal, and the licensing authority may refuse in any case to consider any application for the grant or transfer of a licence under this Act at any meeting other than an annual licensing meeting fixed by the licensing authority for the purpose of considering such applications unless the applicant can satisfy the licensing authority that there are special circumstances which justify the consideration of the application at such other meeting.

(5) Subject to the provision hereinafter contained as to the revocation of a licence by the licensing authority, every licence granted at an annual licensing meeting as aforesaid shall be in force for one year, or for such shorter period as the licensing authority on the grant of the licence shall determine, and every licence granted at any other meeting of the licensing authority shall be in force until the annual licensing meeting next ensuing after the grant thereof, or for such shorter period as the licensing authority on the grant thereof shall determine.

(6) Premises kept or used as aforesaid shall not be opened for any of die purposes aforesaid except on the days and between the hours stated in the licence relating thereto, and no such premises shall be open for any of the purposes aforesaid after midnight and before the hour of noon: Provided that if any person applies to die licensing authority for a licence exempting him on any special occasion or occasions from the provisions of this subsection relating to the closing of premises it shall be lawful for the licensing authority, if in their discretion they think fit so to do, to grant to the applicant a licence exempting him from the before-mentioned provisions of this subsection during certain hours and on the special occasion or occasions to be specified in the licence.

(7) The observance of the days and hours of opening and closing as aforesaid shall be a condition of every licence.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

I move to leave out subsection (4), which seems unnecessary. There is really nothing to prevent an individual making an application, and there is nothing to prevent the authority refusing it. Therefore there is no necessity to insert this subsection, which is both inoperative and unnecessary.

Amendment moved— Page 2, lines 6 to 17, leave out subsection (4).—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

EARL STANHOPE

I do not propose to divide your Lordships on this Amendment as it is not of any great magnitude. I would, however, point out that the London County Council has already a considerable amount of work to do, and if anybody is allowed to come and demand week after week a licence for a particular place and on its refusal to come again the following week, naturally it is not going to reduce the amount of work done by the Committee concerned. If this subsection is cut out it is possible that a considerable amount of extra work may be placed on the County Council committee and the officials.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

*EARL STANHOPE moved to amend subsection (5) by leaving out the words "at art annual licensing meeting," and also omitting all words after "determine" in the middle of the subsection. The noble Earl said These two Amendments are really of a drafting nature. It is considered that without these Amendments it would be possible for an interval to exist between the termination of one licence and the granting of another. Supposing the annual meeting was held on November 15 this year and was not held next year until, say, the 20th; in that case every single house which had received its annual licence would be without that licence from the 15th to the 20th, and every one of them would accordingly be considered a disorderly house. It is in order to get rid of that interval between the two licences that I propose these Amendments.

Amendments moved— Page 2, line 20, leave out ("at an annual licensing meeting") Page 2, line 22, leave out from ("determine") to the end of subsection (5).—(Earl Stanhope.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

Fees for Licences.

4. There shall be paid to the licensing authority in respect of the grant or transfer of a licence under this Act, such fees as the licensing authority may fix, not exceeding—

(1) For the grant of a licence in respect of church halls, mission halls, schools, institutes, awl similar premises, five shillings for every month or part of a month for which the licence is granted, or one pound, whichever amount is the lesser:

(2) For the grant of a licence in respect of assembly rooms, club rooms, concert halls, hotels, restaurants, public-houses, dancing halls, skating rinks, town balls, drill halls, and swimming baths, five shillings for every month or part of a month for which the licence is granted:

(3) For the grant of a licence in respect of any premises other than those in this section herein-before mentioned:

For premises accommodating not more than five hundred persons—

Ten shillings for every month or part of a mouth for which the licence is granted.

For premises accommodating more than five hundred but not more than one thousand persons—

One pound for every month or part of a month for which the licence is granted.

For premises accommodating more than one thousand, but not more than fifteen hundred persons—

Thirty shillings for every month or part of a month for which a licence is granted.

For premises accommodating more than fifteen hundred, but not more than two thousand persons—

Two pounds for every month or part of a month for which the licence is granted.

For premises accommodating more than two thousand persons—

Three pounds for every month or part of a month for which the licence is granted.

(4) For the transfer of a licence—

For premises to which paragraph (1) or paragraph (2) of this section apply, five shillings.

For other premises, ten shillings.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

Before this clause is added to the Bill I should like to say a word, because I do not wish the noble Lord in charge of the Bill to be under any misapprehension as to the view of the Government upon it. This clause imposes certain fees payable to the licensing authority in respect to the premises licensed. It is true that in the Middlesex Act of 1894 a small fee is payable, but this clause goes far beyond anything in that Act, and for the first time imposes a sub- stantial fee payable by the licensee to the authorities. There is a good deal to be said for this, because no doubt the authorities are put to considerable expense and will no doubt be put to additional expense under this Act. I believe it is stated that as large a sum as £6,000 or £8,000 is annually spent upon the inspection of licensed premises. At the same time, I think it must be borne in mind that the inspection of these theatres is more in the interests of the public than of the theatrical proprietors or managers, and it is questionable whether that expenditure should not be borne out of the general rates rather than be thrown upon the individual. Moreover, this is quite a substantial fee. I do not know what view the Exchequer may take of it. It is conceivable that at some time a Chancellor of the Exchequer may wish to tax places of amusement, and in view of that I do not know whether it would be wise for us at this stage to grant, as it were, to local authorities such sums as might be derived from this species of taxation. However, I have not put down any Amendment upon this, but I reserve to the Government the right, after consideration, if they see fit, to move in another place to amend at any rate the amounts which are specified in this clause.

EARL STANHOPE

I hope His Majesty's Government will not follow the suggestion which has been outlined to the House by the noble Lord, because, as I stated on a previous stage of the Bill, the fees charged under this clause will not cover one-half of the cost of inspection. The cost of inspection is put at over £8,000—that is, the cost of architects going into the question of safety and the cost of fire brigade officers going into the question of fire risks. What we expect to get from these fees is approximately £3,600, as against £8,000 which the inspection will cost. As to the noble Lord's remark that it is possible at some future date that the Chancellor of the Exchequer may see fit to impose taxes on places of this kind, I would suggest that these fees are not likely to be any interference with such taxation any more than was that the case with the licensing of motor-cars. Motor-cars were licensed before the Budget of 1909, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer found no difficulty in placing additional taxes upon them.

Clause 4 agreed to.

Clause 5:

Penalties.

5.—(1) In the case of any premises kept or used for any of the purposes aforesaid without a licence for such purposes first obtained, the person keeping or rated as occupier of the same shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for every day on which the Battle are so kept or used.

(2) In the case of any breach or disregard of any of the terms, conditions, or restrictions upon or subject to which a licence was granted, the holder thereof shall be liable on summary conviction to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds, and in, the case of a continuing offence to a further penalty not exceeding five pounds for each day on which such offence continues, and such licence shall be liable to be revoked by the licensing authority.

(3) Notwithstanding anything in any other Act all penalties recovered under this section shall be paid to the licensing authority taking the proceedings leading to the recovery of the same.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

My first Amendment is to leave out the words " In the case of " at the beginning of the clause. It reads better to begin the clause with the words " Any premises."

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 1 leave out (" in the case of ").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

I move to leave out from subsection (1) the words " any of the purposes aforesaid." It is thought clearer to state what the purposes are, and therefore I move to insert the words " public dancing, singing, or other public entertainments of the like kind."

Amendment moved— Page 4, lines 1 and 2, leave out ("any of the purposes aforesaid ") and insert ("public 'dancing, singing, music, or other public entertainments of the like kind").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

I move, after the word " obtain " in subsection (1), to insert the words in my Amendment. The object is to retain the description " disorderly house " for such premises as are unlicensed. If that is retained as it is in the Middlesex Act it has the advantage of giving the police, if necessary, a right of entry. It also makes the person who occupies such unlicensed premises guilty of a misdemeanour which can be punished by imprisonment or unlimited fine, and the imprisonment can carry with it in some cases hard labour. The insertion of these words provides an alternative method of procedure. If in any circumstances the local authority was slack in prosecuting houses which had not a licence it would give the public, acting through their county councils, power to obtain a warrant which would enable the police to enter and close the premises. This is an additional precaution, and I hope the noble Earl will accept it.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 3, after ("obtained") insert (" shall be deemed a disorderly house, and without prejudice to any enactment respecting the prosecution of persons keeping a disorderly house ").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

EARL STANHOPE

The only point against the Amendment is this, that it does preserve some of the rather extreme procedure of the Act of 1751. By Section 5 of that Act proceedings can be taken against a disorderly house by a common informer. Any two members of the public can take action against the disorderly house, and if the proceedings are successful they can claim a fee of £10 each. Several of the borough councils in London have objected to that procedure, which they think is undignified and unnecessary. They feel that the police authorities are adequate to take proceedings in such cases, and they are therefore anxious to do away altogether with the Act of 1751 in that case. I think it is possible that in another place there may be an Amendment moved to this subsection by which the common informer will be ruled out and the municipal and police authorities given the power, which, of course, ought to be left to them, of taking proceedings in such cases.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

Your Lordships will observe that this clause provides that a penalty not exceeding £50 may be exacted from any one convicted of a breach of the provisions of the Act, and that the fine is to date from the day from which the offence is committed. There is an invariable practice nowadays in all Government Departments dealing with these kind of Bills to insist that the fine should not take place until after conviction. If that is not the case, there is nothing to prevent a local authority from purposely delaying the proceedings against an unlicensed house with a view to mulcting them in very heavy damages. It is considered better now to make the fine date from the date of conviction and not from the date of the offence. I hope it will meet the view of the noble Earl in charge of the Bill if, as my next Amendment proposes, " one hundred pounds " is inserted instead of " fifty pounds " for a first offence, and £50 for every day following. In that way the fine is increased, but the authorities are rather put under an obligation to take proceedings at once and not let the thing remain on with the object of possibly abstracting a bigger fine.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 5, after (" exceeding") insert (" one hundred pounds, and in the case of a continuing offence to a further penalty not exceeding ").—Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

The next two Amendments are consequential.

Amendments moved—

Page 4, line 6, after ("used") insert ("after conviction therefor")

Page 4, line 12, after ("continues") insert ("after conviction therefor").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

EARL STANHOPE

I move to leave out from subsection (3) the words " all penalties " and to insert " any fines." This is merely a drafting Amendment to make the clause read clearer.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 15, leave out (" all penalties ") and insert, (" any fines ").—(Earl Stanhope.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

EARL STANHOPE

I move, after the word " section " in subsection (3), to insert " on the prosecution of a licensing authority." The object of this Amendment is to allow fees and penalties to he paid to the police authorities or to whoever takes proceedings in such cases where it is not the county council. As the clause at present stands, all fines and penalties would be paid to the licensing authorities whoever took proceedings. I hope my noble friend will realise that the county councils are giving over these fees, and will remember that fact when he is dealing later on with Clause 4.

Amendment moved— Page 4, line 16, after (" section") insert (" on the prosecution of a licensing authority ").—(Earl Stanhope.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

Clauses 6 to 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

Repeal.

9. From and after the commencement of this Act the enactments mentioned in the schedule to this Act, in so far as they apply to the area to which this Act applies, are hereby repealed to the extent specified in the third column of that schedule.

LORD ASHBY ST. LEDGERS

I move to omit the words " in so far as they apply to the area to which this Act applies." This is merely a drafting Amendment with the object of bringing in the whole of the twenty-mile radius.

Amendment moved— Page 4, lines 32 and 33, leave out (" in so far as they apply to the area to which this Act applies ").—(Lord Ashby St. Ledgers.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Schedule agreed to.

The Report of Amendments to be received on Tuesday next, and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 12.)