HL Deb 23 July 1912 vol 12 cc631-41

Amendments reported (according to Order).

Clause 1:

Underground Premises.

1.—(1) On and after the first day of January one thousand nine hundred and fourteen, or such later date, not being later than the first clay of January one thousand nine hundred and fifteen, as the Secretary of State may by Order appoint, no underground room in a factory, workshop, or workplace shall be used for the purpose of any of the processes or occupations specified in the Schedule to this Act unless duly certified by the district council to he suitable for the process or occupation named in the certificate, and unless the regulations made under this Act or the conditions contained in the certificate are complied with.

(2) For the purposes of this Act an underground room shall mean any room any part of which is so situate that half or more than half the whole height thereof measured from the floor to the ceiling is below the surface of the footway of the adjoining street, or of the ground adjoining or nearest to the room.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I do not think it will be necessary to detain your Lordships very long over these Amendments, because they were the subject of discussion when the Bill was last before the House in Committee; but I have not yet succeeded wholly in convincing His Majesty's Government and my noble friend opposite of the importance of striking out the proviso in Clause 2. That is the clause which provides that an underground room is not to be permitted unless it is suitable, and the question now to be discussed is what constitutes suitability. As the Bill is drawn, suitability is defined to be, in the first place, whether it complies with certain regulations made by the Home Office. That is a very proper provision. This is a restrictive Statute intended to say that henceforth certain premises which have been used for certain purposes are no longer to be so used, and that certain other premises which are hereafter to be constructed must be constructed so as to conform with the regulations as to suitability. It is therefore evident that such a provision should be the subject of regulations by the Home Office. But the Government inserted in a previous stage a proviso to Clause 2 to the effect that, supposing the Home Office have not had time to make the regulations or supposing they resolve that they will not make regulations, then all the precautions which follow on the making of the regulations are thrown to the winds anti the owners of these premises are to be subject to the discretion of no more important an authority than a district council with an appeal to a Court of Summary Jurisdiction. If regulations are made under the Bill by the Home Office, then Sections 80, 81 and 84 of the Factory Act apply, and the regulations have to be regularly published, opportunity has to be given for objection, and objections have to be carefully considered, and if the objections are persisted in and are not frivolous they have to be inquired into at a public inquiry. And, lastly, when made the regulations have to be laid on the Table of both Houses of Parliament, and if either House objects the regulations fall to the ground. But if the Home Office does not make the regulations here provided for and the local authority is allowed to do it instead, there are no precautions. There is no provision insisting that objections should be considered; there is no public inquiry; there is no laying of the regulations on the Table of Parliament. Simply because an inferior authority makes the regulations there are to be no precautions. You cannot expect the public to accept a provision that is, on the face of it, so unreasonable. Though I am here to ask your Lordships to make an alteration in the law in the direction of a more drastic provision, yet I am not prepared to go so far as that. The first four Amendments standing in my name deal with this point. At the moment, however, I move the first Amendment to delete the words "or the conditions contained in the certificate" at the end of subsection (1) of Clause 1.

Amendment moved— Clause 1, page 1, line 14, leave out ("or the conditions contained in the certificate").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE PAYMASTER - GENERAL (LORD STRACHIE)

I undertook on the previous occasion when this Bill was before the House to go fully into the question whether it was desirable to make any alteration on the lines suggested by the noble Marquess. I should like to remind the House, first of all, of the position as the Bill now stands. The local authority in certifying underground workplaces must be guided by the Home Office regulations if there are any such regulations. If the Home Office are to make regulations dealing with the various trades and processes in the Schedule, having regard also to the fact that it is intended that the Schedule should be added to very largely in the future, the result would be that these regulations would be very complicated indeed; they would require a great deal of research and consideration before they came into effect, and would consequently take considerable time to draw up. It is therefore provided in the Bill as it stands that, in default of any such regulations being made by the Home Office, then at their own discretion the local authority is to exercise the powers which the noble Marquess seems to be so very much afraid of, though, as he pointed out, a Court of Summary Jurisdiction will have power to revise the district council regulations or forbid their being carried out. As regards orders made by district councils an inquiry is not so important, because they only deal with a small area and with matters within the knowledge of the members of the district council themselves and also in the knowledge of the constituents, who can, if necessary, correct any unfairness at the next district council election. As the Bill now stands, it is practically the same as when introduced by Lord Willoughby de Broke. The Home Office Amendments were merely of a drafting character and were necessary to put the Bill into shape. What the noble Marquess now proposes is that the local authority should only certify workplaces if regulations have been Made by the Home Office. The result of that would be that the Home Office would have to make regulations for all the trades included in the Schedule.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The Bill would not operate until the regulations had been made. That is the effect of my Amendments.

LORD STRACHIE

Then the existing state of things would remain until the Home Office were able to make regulations. Clause 8 specifies that regulations are to be made as to the structure of underground rooms, the provision and use, as regards such rooms, of means of securing the maintenance of reasonable temperature, proper lighting and ventilation, freedom from damp, dust, effluvia and exhalations, and the carrying off of dust and fumes, and otherwise for securing the health of persons employed in underground rooms in the processes and occupations to which the Bill applies. The feeling of the Home Secretary is that he cannot agree to the responsibility being placed on the Home Office of making these regulations. While it might be very easy for a local authority acquainted with the local conditions to make regulations, I think the House will see that it would be very difficult indeed for a central authority like the Home Office to make them, as great research would be necessary to prevent injustice being done. We have a precedent for the course we suggest. At the present moment under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, the existing provisions as regards underground bakehouses are left entirely to the discretion of the local authority. If that is so in such an important matter as underground bakehouses, which not only affect the health of the workers in those bakehouses but the public who purchase the bread, why should it not be equally right for a local authority to deal with the matters covered in this Bill? They are the best judges in the matter of underground premises; and, on the whole, the Secretary of State thinks it will be best if the Bill follows the bakehouse section of the Factory and Workshop Act and leaves the matter in the hands of the local authorities. In any case the Secretary of State cannot give an assurance that the Home Office will make the regulations suggested in the Bill.

THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNE

I understand the noble Lord to suggest that in the view of the Department the best thing would be that the whole matter should remain in the hands of the local authorities. [Lord STRACHIE nodded assent.] If that is so, then are we not entitled to ask what is the object of the clause requiring the making of these regulations.

LORD STRACHIE

There may, of course, be cases where it might be desirable for the Home Office to make regulations. That is the advantage of having elasticity in the Bill. Clause 8 as it now stands and as it was introduced states that the Secretary of State "may" by Order make regulations. The Department desire to be left free to make regulations where necessary, though not necessarily in all cases. In most cases it will probably be to the advantage of every one that the matter should be left to the local authorities.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 2:

Certification.

2. An underground room shall not be certified by the district council as suitable unless the council are satisfied that such underground room complies with the regulations made under this Act: Provided that if no regulations applicable to the case have been so made a certificate shall not be granted unless the district council are satisfied that the room is suitable in respect of the matters as to which regulations might have been made, and the certificate shall specify the means required, as a condition of certification, to be provided for securing the health of the persons employed in the room, and shall be made conditional on such means being maintained and properly used.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I move to omit the proviso from this clause. Your Lordships having carried the previous Amendment, this Amendment and the next two standing in my name to Clauses 4 and 5 are consequential.

Amendment moved— Clause 2, page 1, line 24, to page 2, line 7, leave out from ("Act") to the end of the clause.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 4:

Withdrawal of Certificate.

4. A Court of Summary Jurisdiction may on complaint, in the case of a factory by an inspector, and in any other case by the district council, and on being satisfied that as regards any underground room in respect of which a certificate has been granted the regulations under this Act, or the conditions contained in the certificate, are not complied with, withdraw the certificate.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to omit the words "or the conditions contained in the certificate."

Amendment moved— Clause 4, page 2, lines 19 and 20, leave out ("or the conditions contained in the certificate").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 5:

Right of Appeal.

5. In the event of a refusal of a certificate by the district council, the occupier of the factory, workshop, or workplace in which there is an underground room may within twenty-one days of such refusal by complaint apply to a Court of Summary Jurisdiction, and if it appears to the satisfaction of the Court that the underground room complies with the regulations under this Act, or if there are no regulations applicable to the case, is suitable in respect of the matters as to which regulations might have been made, the Court shall thereupon grant such a certificate as the district council ought to have granted, which shall have the like effect as if granted by the district council.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY moved to omit the words "or if there are no regulations applicable to the case, is suitable in respect of the matters as to which regulations might have been made."

Amendment moved— Clause 5, page 2, line 28, leave out from ("Act") to ("the") in line 30.—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 7:

Enforcement of Act Workshops and Workplaces.

7. As respects premises other than factories the provisions of this Act shall be enforced by the district council of the district in which the premises are situate, and for the purposes of this section any officer of the district council authorised in that behalf shall, for the purposes of this Act, have and may exercise in respect of such premises all the powers of entry, inspection, taking legal proceedings, and otherwise of an inspector, under the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am in hopes that the noble Lord will agree to the next two Amendments.

Amendments moved— Clause 7, page 3, line 5, after ("factories") insert ("it shall be the duty of the district council of the district in which the premises are situate to enforce") Clause 7, page 3, line 6, leave out from ("Act") to ("and") in line 7.—(The Marquees of Salisbury.)

LORD STRACHIE

I accept the Amendments.

On Question, Amendments agreed to.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I move to insert a new clause after Clause 7. This is in its nature a default clause, but it also arises out of a remark which the noble Lord opposite made on the last stage. He said that in respect of some of these trades and occupations the Home Office had no power at present of interference or of sending inspectors. It seemed good, therefore, to give them specific power under the Bill. The drafting of this clause is taken out of the Factory Acts and it applies the provisions of the Factory Acts to these underground workplaces. Under these words there would be, if the district council did not enforce the regulations made by the Home Office, complete power on the part of the Home Office to send in an inspector and put the law in force. As the Bill depends upon regulations the authority which makes the regulations should have the right to see that they are carried out. We have no desire to make habitual interference by the Home Office necessary. We throw the duty on the district council in the first instance to see that the regulations are carried out, but if credible persons represent to the Home Office that the regulations are not being carried out, then my Amendment gives power to the Home Office to interfere. That is the sum total of the Amendment.

Amendment moved— After Clause 7, insert the following new clause, viz.:

"Power of Secretary of State to Act in Default of District Council.

"8.—(1) If on complaint in writing by any person who appears to the Secretary of State to be interested, the Secretary of State is satisfied that the provisions of this Act have not been carried out by any district council, the Secretary of State may, after communicating with the district council alleged to be in default, and after giving the council an opportunity of remedying their default, by Order authorise an Inspector to take during such period as may be mentioned in the Order such steps as appear necessary or proper for enforcing those provisions.

"(2) An Inspector authorised in pursuance of this section shall for the purpose of his duties there-under have the same powers with regard to underground rooms to which this Act applies as he has with respect to factories, and be may for that purpose exercise all or any of the powers of the district council under this Act and may take the like proceedings for enforcing the provisions of this Act or for punishing or remedying any default as might be taken by the district council, and he shall be entitled to recover from the district council all such expenses in and about any proceedings as he may incur, and as are not recovered from any other person."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

LORD STRACHIE

I think the noble Marquess misunderstood me. I did not say that the Home Office had no power generally. I said they had no power as regards typewriting rooms and restaurant kitchens. It is hardly necessary to put in this new clause because the matter is covered by Section 4 of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901, as regards those trades where the Home Office has power to send in inspectors.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The noble Lord admits that the clause would be required for typewriting rooms and restaurant kitchens.

LORD STRACHIE

I am advised by the Home Office that the drafting is bad.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I think we had better put the clause in now, and if the noble Lord wishes to make any suggestions afterwards the matter can be reconsidered.

On Question, Amendment agreed to.

Clause 8:

Regulations.

8.—(1) The Secretary of State may by Order make regulations as to structure of underground rooms to which this Act applies, and the provision and use as regards such rooms of means for securing the maintenance of reasonable temperature, proper lighting and ventilation, freedom from damp, dust, effluvia and exhalations, and the carrying off of dust and fumes, and otherwise for securing the health of persons employed in underground rooms in the processes and occupations to which this Act applies; and different regulations may be made as respects different processes and different occupations, or as respects rooms which are used for the purposes of any such processes or occupations at the time when the Order comes into effect, and rooms winch are not so used.

(2) The Secretary of State may by Order extend the provisions of this Act to processes and occupations other than those specified in the Schedule to this Act, and thereupon this Act shall, subject to the provisions of the Order, apply as if that. Schedule included the processes and occupations specified in the Order.

(3) Sections eighty, eighty-one, and eighty-four of the Factory and Workshop Act, 1901 (relating to the procedure for making regulations as to dangerous trades) shall apply to the making of Orders under this section.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Amendment to Clause 8 is permissive. The word is "may," not "shall." Therefore it is not so drastic a provision as the one which I suggested on the last occasion.

Amendment moved— Clause 8, page 3, line 21, after ("applies") insert ("and the regulations may prohibit the use of underground rooms to which this Act applies in so far as any such room is as a whole or as regards any part thereof solely dependent upon artificial light for the purposes of any of the processes or occupations to which this Act applies").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

LORD STRACHIE

The noble Marquess has given up the idea of total prohibition, which I thought very dangerous indeed; but it seems to me that the Amendment is really unnecessary because now that it is merely permissive it seems that all that the noble Marquess desires can be done under Clause 8.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I will not press the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule:

and other occupations incidental to any of the foregoing.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My final Amendment is to add the words "and other clerical work" after "typewriting" in the Schedule. It is not defensible that at this time of day a large number of persons should carry on their work under these very adverse conditions. Men and women have habitually to carry on clerical work in rooms underground which are ill-lighted, ill-ventilated, full of dust, and in an insanitary condition, and that is most pernicious not only to their health but to the race of which they become the fathers and mothers. I admit that in extreme cases the Public Health Act will apply, and that they can be stopped now; but I submit to the Government that they take a great responsibility if they resist the plea which I put forward that these unfortunate cases should be placed within the purview of the Bill. Let them make regulations of an elastic character if they will, but to say that this vast class of clerks many of whom are women, who labour in underground rooms should not receive protection is to take up a serious position.

Amendment moved— Schedule, page 4, line 18, after ("Typewriting") insert ("and other clerical work").—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

LORD STRACHIE

Since the last occasion I have gone very carefully into this question, and I cannot convince myself that this Amendment is absolutely necessary. The feeling of the Home Office is that it might lead to a good many complications. I entirely agree with the noble Marquess that all work, whether it be typewriting, or clerical work, or whatever it be, should be carried on under the best possible conditions, but I cannot agree with him that because a place happens to be underground and possesses no natural light that it is therefore a place in which people may not work without injury to their health.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

I am only seeking to enable the Home Office to make proper regulations.

LORD STRACHIE

If there is a demand fox this the Home Office has power to include clerical work and work of other kinds in the Schedule. The Home Office should have longer time to consider the matter, and should also have discretionary power to decide whether the proposed inclusion of other clerical work is really necessary.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

The noble Lord says that the Home Office want a little more time. That implies that they might, perhaps, come to a different conclusion. I am willing to trust them as far as I possibly can, and if I could get the least indication that there would be some sort of inquiry into this matter I would not press the Amendment. If we had some kind of inquiry into the case of clerks it would be quite possible for the Home Office afterwards to include clerical work in the Schedule if the result of the inquiry went to show that it was required.

LORD STRACHIE

While I can give no absolute promise, I will certainly undertake that the views of the noble Marquess on this matter shall be brought before the Home Secretary.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

In those circumstances I will not press the Amendment now, but will reserve to myself the right to move for the appointment of a Select Committee if I should consider that course necessary.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Bill to be read 3a on Monday next, and to be printed as amended. (No. 129.)