HL Deb 15 December 1908 vol 198 cc1529-40

Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee read.

Moved, "That the House do now resolve itself into Committee."—(Earl Beauchamp.)

House in Committee accordingly.

[The Earl of ONSLOW in the Chair.]

Clause 1:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to amend subsection (1)— (1) Where a person is convicted on indictment of an offence for which he is liable to be sentenced to penal servitude or imprisonment, and it appears to the Court: (a) That the person is not less than sixteen nor more than twenty-one years of age; and (b) that, by reason of his antecedents or mode of life, it is expedient that he should be subject to detention, for such term and under such instruction and discipline as appears most conducive to his reformation and the repression of crime; it shall be lawful for the Court, in lieu of passing a sentence of penal servitude or imprisonment, to pass a sentence of detention under penal discipline in a Borstal institution for a term of not less than one year nor more than three years, by omitting from Paragraph (b) the words "antecedents or mode of life," and substituting the words "criminal habits or tendencies, or association with persons of bad character." It was thought that these words were better as a direction to the Court as to the persons to be sent to the Borstal institution.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 12, to leave out the words 'antecedents or mode of life,' and to insert the words 'criminal habits or tendencies, or association with persons of bad character.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved an Amendment providing that before passing such a sentence the Court should consider any report or representations which might be made to it by or on behalf of the Prison Commissioners as to the suitability of the case for treatment in a Borstal institution. He thought their Lordships would see the desirability of the Court considering any report or representations of the kind referred to.

Amendment moved— In page 1, line 21, after the word 'shall,' to insert the words 'consider any Report or representations which may be made to it by or on behalf of the Prison Commissioners as to the suitability of the case for treatment in a Borstal institution, and shall.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 2:

THE EARL OF MEATH moved to omit Clause 2 and to insert a new clause. By the clause in the Bill it was provided that where a youthful offender sentenced to detention in a reformatory school was convicted of committing a breach of the rules of the school, or of inciting to such a breach, or of escaping from such a school, the Court might, in lieu of sentencing him to imprisonment, sentence him to detention in a Borstal institution. A Borstal institution was a place where an offender was treated in a much more lenient manner than in a reformatory. He had no objection whatever to boys and girls who misbehaved themselves in reformatories being sent to Borstal institutions; as a matter of fact, he would prefer reformatory institutions being abolished and Borstal institutions substituted in their place. But he thought it was a little unjust and decidedly unwise to place a premium upon, insubordination, for that was what the provision in the Bill now amounted to. Youthful offenders who committed further offences while in the reformatory were to be permitted to enjoy all the amenities of the Borstal institution. The object of his Amendment was to place all on the same footing.

Amendment moved— To leave out Clause 2, and to insert the following new clause: 'The Secretary of State may, if satisfied that a person sentenced to detention in a reformatory school, whether before or after the passing of this Act, being within the limits of age within which persons may be detained in a Borstal institution might with advantage be detained in a Borstal institution, authorises the managers of the reformatory school in which such person is being detained to transfer him from such reformatory school to a Borstal institution, there to serve the whole or any part of the unexpired residue of his sentence, and whilst detained in or placed out on licence from such an institution, this Part of this Act shall apply to him as if he had been originally sentenced to detention in a Borstal institution.'"—(The Earl of Meath.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

could not accept the Amendment. He thought the noble Earl had somewhat misunderstood the purpose of the Borstal institution. They were not really suitable places of detention for those whom the noble Earl wished to send there. Borstal institutions were not intended for young offenders whose previous character had been good; and their pleasant side, to which the noble Earl had alluded, referred more to their results than to the actual conditions of life within them. The Amendment would strike a great blow at the whole idea of Borstal institutions, and he hoped it would be withdrawn.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 2 agreed to.

Clause 3:

EARL BEAUCHAMP

, on behalf of Lord Courtney of Penwith, moved an Amendment in this clause. The clause provided that if satisfied that a person "sentenced, whether before or after the passing of this Act, to penal servitude or imprisonment" might, with advantage, be detained in a Borstal institution, the Secretary of State could authorise the Prison Commissioners to transfer such person from prison to a Borstal institution. He moved to leave out the words "sentenced, whether before or after the passing of this Act, to penal servitude or imprisonment," and to substitute "undergoing penal servitude or imprisoned in consequence of a sentence passed either before or after the passing of this Act."

Amendment moved— In page 2, lines 28 and 29, to leave out the words 'sentenced, whether before or after the passing of this Act, to penal servitude or imprisonment,' and to insert the words 'undergoing penal servitude or imprisoned in consequence of a sentence passed either before or after the passing of this Act.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 3, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 4:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved an Amendment empowering the Secretary of State to make regulations not only for the rule and management of any Borstal institution, but also as to the constitution of a visiting committee.

Amendment moved— In page 3, line 11, after the word 'institution,' to insert the words 'and the constitution of a visiting committee thereof.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 4, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 5:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to add to subsection (5) power to enable a Court of Summary Jurisdiction to commit to any prison within the jurisdiction of the Court until the person on licence could conveniently be removed to the institution. He explained that a person who had got out of a Borstal institution might be apprehended a long way off, and the question arose as to where he should be kept until he could be got back again to the institution. The Amendment met that point.

Amendment moved— In page 4, line 10, after the word 'institution,' to insert the words 'and may commit him to any prison within the jurisdiction of the Court until he can conveniently be removed to the institution.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 5, as amended, agreed to.

New clause:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to insert, after Clause 5, a new clause which subjected persons on the determination of their sentence in a Borstal institution to supervision by the Prison Commissioners for a period of six months. He explained that this followed the course which their Lordships had already approved in the Children Bill.

Amendment moved— To insert the following new clause: '(1) Every person sentenced to detention in a Borstal institution shall on the expiration of the term of his sentence remain for a further period of six months under the supervision of the Prison Commissioners. (2) The Prison Commissioners may grant to any person under their supervision a licence in accordance with the last foregoing section, and may revoke any such licence and recall the person to a Borstal institution, and any person so recalled may be detained in a Borstal institution for a period not exceeding three months, and may at any time be again placed out on licence. Provided that a person shall not be so recalled unless the Prison Commissioners are of opinion that the recal is necessary for his protection, and they shall again place him out on licence as soon as possible and at latest within three months after the recall. (3) A licence granted to a person before the expiration of his sentence of detention in a Borstal institution shall, on his becoming liable to be under supervision, in accordance with this section, continue in force after the expiration of that term, and may be revoked in manner provided by the last foregoing section. (4) The Secretary of State may at any time order that a person under supervision under this section shall cease to be under such supervision.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

EARL RUSSELL

inquired whether he was correct in assuming that this clause imposed by statute an additional sentence of six months beyond the sentence passed by the Court.

LORD ALVERSTONE

said the noble Earl had called attention to a point which would have to be considered by the Home Office. As the Amendment was now framed, it would appear that after the expiration of the term of sentence there could be a recall to prison. Perhaps the point would be looked into before the Report stage.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said the point should be considered before the Report stage. He thought it would be as well, however, if the Amendment were agreed to in the meantime.

Clauses 6 to 8 agreed to.

Clause 9:

LORD ASHBOURNE moved an Amendment empowering the Court to pass sentence of preventive detention where the prisoner pleaded guilty to being a habitual criminal.

Amendment moved— In page 5, line 8, after the word 'offender,' to insert the words 'admits that he is or.'"—(Lord Ashbourne.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

accepted the Amendment.

*LORD KINNAIRD moved to amend subsection (1)— (1) Where a person is convicted on indictment of a crime, committed after the passing of this Act, and subsequently the offender is found by the jury to be a habitual criminal, and the Court passes a sentence of penal servitude, the Court, if of opinion that by reason of his criminal habits and mode of life it is expedient for the protection of the public that the offender should be kept in detention for a lengthened period of years, may pass a further sentence ordering that on the determination of the sentence of penal servitude he be detained for such period not exceeding ten nor less than five years, as the Court may determine, and such detention is herein-after referred to as preventive detention, and a person on whom such a sentence is passed shall, whilst undergoing both the sentence of penal servitude and the sentence of preventive detention, be deemed for the purposes of the Forfeiture for Felony Act, 1870, and for all other purposes, to be a person convicted of felony, by inserting, at the beginning of the subsection, after the words "passes a sentence of penal servitude," the words "or imprisonment." He explained that this Amendment would make the power the same as in Clause 1. The object was to enable a person to be dealt with in this way whose offence did not justify a very severe sentence, but whom it was desirable should be detained.

Amendment moved— In page 5, line 9, after the word 'servitude,' to insert the words 'or imprisonment.'"—(Lord Kinnaird.)

EARL RUSSELL

supported the Amendment. He thought it contrary to the general course of legislation nowadays not to leave the matter to the discretion of the Judge. As the clause stood, a Judge could not send a habitual criminal to preventive detention at all unless he was prepared to preface it by a sentence of at least three years penal servitude. He thought the provision as it stood would place a difficulty in the way of Judges in passing this sentence.

EARL BEAUCHAMP

could not accept the Amendment. Lord Kinnaird appeared to be under some misapprehension as to the character of the people intended to be sentenced to periods of preventive detention. Clause 1 dealt with Borstal institutions, but in the present clause they were dealing with the habitual and hardened offender. There was, therefore, no parallel between the two clauses. The Government were anxious to begin, at any rate, by providing that the period of detention should be confined to really hardened criminals, and they could not have a better definition of a hardened criminal than that he had been sentenced by a Judge to penal servitude. The Amendment struck at the foundation of this part of the Bill, and would make its administration quite impossible for several years to come.

LORD ALVERSTONE

, while sympathising with the Amendment, thought the view taken by His Majesty's Government was quite right, at any rate in the present state of matters. It would be, as the noble Earl had said, impossible to work the detention part of the Bill if all persons sentenced to imprisonment were supposed to come under that jurisdiction. The accommodation would not be sufficient, and he was quite satisfied that the Government were right in not at present so largely extending the operation of the Bill as Lord Kinnaird proposed.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved the addition of a new subsection.

Amendment moved— In page 6, line 15, after the word 'charge,' to insert the following new subsection: '(5) Without prejudice to any right of the accused to tender evidence as to his character and repute, evidence of character and repute may, if the Court thinks fit, be admitted as evidence on the question whether the accused is or is not leading persistently a dishonest or criminal life.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 9, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10 agreed to.

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to insert, after Clause 10, a new clause designed to allow the Home Secretary in certain cases to commute part of a long term of penal servitude and sentence the prisoner to a year of preventive detention.

Amendment moved— After Clause 10, to insert the following new clause: 'Where a person has been sentenced, whether before or after the passing of this Act, to penal servitude for a term of five years or upwards, and he appears to the Secretary of State to have been a habitual criminal within the meaning of this Act, the Secretary of State may, if he thinks fit, at any time after three years of the term of penal servitude have expired, commute the whole or any part of the residue of the sentence to a sentence of preventive detention, so, however, that the total term of the sentence when so commuted shall not exceed the term of penal servitude originally awarded.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 11:

EARL RUSSELL moved a new subsection providing that persons undergoing preventive detention should "enjoy the ameliorating and humanising influences of conversation with fellow-prisoners, reading and writing, visits from approved friends, and windows permitting a view of the sky." The only statutory guarantee given as to the way in which persons undergoing preventive detention were to be treated was the provision in subsection (3) of Clause 11, to the effect that persons undergoing preventive detention should be subjected to such, disciplinary and reformative influences, and should be employed on such work as might be best fitted to make them able and willing to earn an honest livelihood on discharge. So far as he understood, the only justification for the detention of these persons beyond the period of the ordinary sentence was the protection of society, and, therefore, they should, he submitted, enjoy greater comfort than usually obtained in a prison which was purely punitive. If the person detained was allowed to enjoy the influences referred to in the Amendment it would tend to make him a better member of society at the termination of his sentence. The provision in subsection (3), to which he had referred, had to be administered by the same persons as administered the ordinary punitive system, and he had great apprehension that the treatment would not be sufficiently differentiated.

Amendment moved— In page 7, line 6, after subsection (3) to insert the following new subsection: '(4) So far as is consistent with the requirements of discipline and the maintenance of order persons undergoing preventive detention shall enjoy the ameliorating and humanising influences of: (1) Conversation with fellow prisoners; (2) reading and writing; (3) visits from approved friends; (4) windows permitting a view of the sky.'"—(Earl Russell.)

EARL BEAUCHAMP

said that the Secretary of State had a great deal of sympathy with this Amendment, but in the opinion of the Home Office the subject should be dealt with rather by rule. Provision had been made in the rules as to conversation and reading and writing. But the sanction of "visits from approved friends" was a more difficult subject. These prisoners would be chiefly habitual criminals, and the chances were that they would be visited by people of the same type. Great care must therefore be taken. The provision of windows permitting a view of the sky was a subject that was being considered, and, indeed, the scheme was being introduced in the construction of a new prison.

LORD ALVERSTONE

hoped Earl Russell would be satisfied with what the Lord Steward had said. From his experience of what was being done in this matter, he was quite sure that the noble Earl could safely leave it in the hands of the Home Office. It was being borne in mind in connection with prisons all over the country.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 11 agreed to.

Clause 12:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved the omission of subsection (8)— (8) The Annual Report of the Directors of convict prisons shall state, as regards each person undergoing preventive detention, the place where he is detained, the date at which his term of preventive detention commenced, the number and dates of his previous convictions, together with the crimes which led up to them, and such other particulars as the Secretary of State may consider desirable in the public interest. This subsection, he said, was inserted at the time when it was thought that the sentence under the Bill would be very much longer. That provision, however, was amended in Committee, and therefore, there was not now the same need for this subsection.

Amendment moved— In page 8, lines 12 to 18, to leave out subsection (8)."—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Drafting Amendment agreed to.

Clause 12, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 13:

EARL BEAUCHAMP moved to add to subsection (4), which provided that a Court of Summary jurisdiction might issue a warrant for the arrest of a prisoner whose licence had been forfeited and order him to be remitted to preventive detention, the words "and may commit him to any prison within the jurisdiction of the Court until he can conveniently be removed to a prison or part of a prison set apart for the purpose of the confinement of persons undergoing preventive detention."

Amendment moved— In page 8, line 41, after the word 'detention,' to insert the words 'and may commit him to any prison within the jurisdiction of the Court until he can conveniently be removed to a prison or part of a prison set apart for the purpose of the confinement of persons undergoing preventive detention.'"—(Earl Beauchamp.)

Clause 13, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 14, agreed to.

Clause 15:

Drafting Amendments agreed to.

Clause 15, as amended, agreed to.

Remaining clauses agreed to.

Standing Committee negatived. The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow, and Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered in order to its being dispensed with. Bill to be printed as amended. [No. 258.]