HL Deb 24 July 1891 vol 356 cc261-5

Read 3a (according to order) with Amendments.

Verbal Amendments made.

LORD BARRINGTON

My Lords, I have an Amendment to move upon Clause 18. It is scarcely worth while to recapitulate what took place yesterday. The sense of the House was very well proved by the Division which took place. Notwithstanding the able manner in which the noble Earl appealed to your Lordships in endeavouring to have the clause struck out of the Bill, it remains, having been carried by a large majority. I say nothing more, but that my sympathies are very much with the noble Earl, and I think that the sting of the clause might well be be removed by an Amendment. Therefore, I would now move to add at the end of the clause, Unless she produces a medical certificate that the employment will not be injurious to her health. Clause 18 is to prevent an employer during the space of four weeks knowingly employing a woman after her confinement. There is no doubt that many women are able to follow their ordinary occupation in less time than four weeks. It was shown, upon very good evidence produced by the noble Earl, that many do so in 10 days or a fortnight, and I think that if a woman obtains a medical certificate that she is in a fit state there can be no possible objection to her being employed earlier than a month if she desires. I beg to move this Amendment.

Amendment moved, in page 8, line 39, at the end of Clause 18, to insert the words— ("Unless she produces a medical certificate that the employment will not he injurious to her health.")—(The Lord Barrington.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

Before the noble Lord answers, I must call attention to the fact that no notice has been given of the noble Lord's Amendment; and without expressing any opinion upon it, I would point out that after the decision given in a much fuller House by a decided majority, it is very inconvenient that the subject should be brought forward in a very small House upon an Amendment of which no notice has been given.

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)

I think what the noble Earl has said is conclusive; we were told the other evening that it could not be done without notice.

*EARL WEMYSS

This is a very important proposal of my noble Friend's, and I think the Amendment ought to be considered.

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

But there is no notice.

*EARL WEMYSS

I know—it is a matter of form. Why not postpone the Third Reading? There is no hurry. Instead of taking it now, postpone it; that will give time for notice.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

The Third Reading has been passed.

*EARL WEMYSS

Then I can move a postponement before the Bill is passed.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

That is a very inconvenient course. The House has decided this question by a large majority after a full discussion, and we have now passed the Third Reading. It is really very inconvenient to put in Amendments without notice after that.

LORD BARRINGTON

I press my Amendment.

*EARL WEMYSS

I do not know what is the form; but I must say I think it is extremely desirable that this proviso should be appended to the clause. Surely the noble Lords on my right, if it is unnecessary that some women should be kept out of their proper employment for four weeks—that is, if their health as shown by a medical certificate admits of their resuming their work—do not wish that they should be deprived of their employment needlessly? My own impression is that the whole of this legislation is wrong so far as it is carried out in this particular clause. I divided upon it because Lord Hannen came to me and said—

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

May I interrupt the noble Lord? As I understand the Order of the House, it is irregular to move an Amendment at this stage without notice. I quite admit that from time to time by consent of the House formal Amendments have been made; but this is a matter of substance, and I believe, as a question of Order of the House, it is out of order to move such an Amendment at such a time.

Amendment (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

Amendments moved, in Clause 26, page 10, line 29, after ("therein") to insert— ("And every contractor employed by any such occupier"); lines 39 and 40, to leave out ("in a factory or workshop.") The occupier of the factory or workshop,") and insert ("by the occupier of a factory or workshop, or by a contractor, the occupier, or contractor.")—(The Lord de Ramsey.)

LORD SANDHURST

I agree to that Amendment. Those words were originally inserted in the clause which I proposed.

Amendment agreed to.

Moved, "That the Bill do now pass."

*EARL WEMYSS

Now, my Lords, I move at this stage that the Bill be postponed, and I do so simply on this ground. As a matter of fact, I believe this proviso is one which we had every reason to believe would be accepted. It modifies the evil of the clause itself, and may be of great advantage to those poor women who by the clause are to be struck out of employment for four weeks when they are perfectly able at the end of two or three to return to their work. I do hope the noble Lord in charge of the Bill, and those on the Government side of the House, will allow the Bill to be postponed, in order that notice of this Amendment may be given in due form. I do trust that will be consented to by the leaders of this House.

LORD HERSCHELL

I feel sure that is impossible. The Motion has been put, "That the Bill do pass," and if you adjourn that Motion no Amendments can be put in after the Third Reading. An adjournment of the Motion "That the Bill do pass" will not enable Amendments to be put in.

*EARL WEMYSS

We were told that would be the proper course, and that it has been done.

LORD HERSCHELL

What was done in the case of the Gates and Toll-bars Bill was that the adjournment took place upon the Motion for the Third Reading of the Bill.

*EARL WEMYSS

I can only regret, my Lords, that the Forms of this House should prevent a necessary modification of a very foolish and very harsh clause. The responsibility rests with others, and not with us.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

I am not quite certain that my noble and learned Friend is accurate. I have a very distinct recollection of the Land Transfer Bill when the Motion was put that the Bill should pass; a Motion was then made upon that, and upon that Motion it was defeated.

*EARL WEMYSS

On the strength of that, I will move that this stage of the Bill be adjourned, and I will divide upon it.

Amendment moved, "That the Debate on the said Motion be adjourned to Monday next."—(The Lord Wemyss [E. Wemyss].)

*THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

My impression is that the Amendment cannot be proposed after the Motion that the Bill do pass.

*THE EARL OF SELBORNE

In the case mentioned by my noble and learned Friend there can be no doubt that the Motion "That the Bill do pass" had not been put; the Third Beading had been passed; and it was agreed that the Debate should be adjourned at that stage.

On Question, resolved in the negative.

*EARL WEMYSS

My Lords, I wish to give notice, in reference to the Motion for postponement of this Bill, that if the Bill receives Her Majesty's assent I shall next Session bring in a Bill to repeal the 16th clause.

Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.