HL Deb 04 August 1891 vol 356 cc1219-22

Commons Amendment to Lords Amendments, and Commons reasons for disagreeing to some of the Lords Amendments, considered (according to order).

THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Viscount CRANBROOK)

My Lords, the first Amendment is on page 3, line 9, as to inquiries to be made under Section 9 of the Elementary Education Act, 1870. The Commons have disagreed to the Amendment made in this House, because a public inquiry in a School Bard district might cause unnecessary delay in providing free school accommodation. To this we propose to assent.

Commons Amendment agreed to.

A further Amendment of the Commons agreed to.

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

The next Amendment arises from the circumstance that in the House of Commons an objection was made that the Amendments proposed by this House in the new clause with regard to grouping schools, after Clause 5, infringed the privileges of the House of Commons; and the Speaker held that, inasmuch as it might in contingent cases lead to an increase in the public charges, it was in contravention of those privileges. If I may say so, with great respect to the Speaker, that seems to me to be a decision with regard to this House which would preclude its dealing with many matters in which, upon some contingency, a slight charge might be added to those thrown on the Public Revenue, not being a direct interference with the application of the Public Revenue. At the same time, we are anxious in every way to meet the decision which the Speaker has expressed. Therefore, with the permission of your Lordships, I have to a certain extent to vary the Amendment which is placed in my name on the Paper, inasmuch as I find it does not altogether meet the point which the Speaker thought objectionable in the other House. What I propose would read so that no addition to the charge on the Public Revenue may result from the course taken under the section in conjunction with Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act. One other alteration will also be necessary, inasmuch as in the House of Commons they struck out the words "not being schools provided by a School Board," and therefore "schools" now would come under the clause. It would be necessary to put in this in order that the voluntary schools may not partake, by providing that no Board school shall, under this section, be associated with a public elementary school other than a Board school. I hope the House will assent to this, which, in substance, is the same, though it is put in a different form to meet the decision of the Speaker.

Lords Amendment.

After Clause 5, to insert Clause (A.) (Clause 7 in Bill 257).

  1. "(1.) Where the managers of two or more public elementary schools in the same or neighbouring school districts, not being schools provided by a school board, agree to associate, and elect a committee for the schools in accordance with a scheme to be approved by the Education Department, the schools may le treated as one school for such of the purposes of the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1891, as may be mentioned in the scheme, and the committee may for such purposes be treated as the managers of the associated schools.
  2. (2.) Where two or more public elementary schools are under the same managers, the said schools shall, if the managers so desire, be deemed for the purposes of this Act to be one school."

The Commons disagree to Clause A inserted by the Lords, for the following Reason:— Because the clause might have the effect of increasing the Parliamentary grant, at present permitted by law, to certain of the schools associated under the provisions of the clause, and thus create a further charge upon the revenue. The Commons do not deem it necessary to offer any further Reason, hoping the above may be sufficient.

Amendment moved thereupon:

In lieu of Clause (A), to which the Commons have disagreed (and on which it will be moved that the Lords do not insist), to insert the following clause:— (1.) Where the managers of two or more public elementary schools in the same or neighbouring school districts agree to associate and elect a committee for the schools, any surplus income on the accounts for the school year of any of the associated schools may be paid into a common fund, out of which contributions may be made to any of the other associated schools, but the contributions received by any such school shall not be counted as income from other sources for the purpose of Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act, 1876, so that no addition to the public charge may result from this section taken in conjunction with the said Section 19. Provided that no Board School shall, under this section, be associated with any public elementary school other than a Board School."—(The Viscount Cranbrook.)

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, with reference to this Motion I have to say it appears to me the claim set up in the Reasons sent by the House of Commons is an excessive claim, and much in advance of any that has been made before, and I do not think the decision of the Speaker is tenable. We do not assign to the officer who presides over us the duty of watching over our own privileges, and therefore it falls to me to make a suggestion to the House on the subject. I think, in assenting to this Amendment, we ought to indicate that, though we do so for the sake of the Bill being passed, we cannot consent to the doctrine stated in the Reasons sent up by the House of Commons being made a precedent hereafter, that anything which may indirectly lead to an increase in the public charge is outside the competence of this House. I therefore beg to move— That this House, in agreeing to the said Amendment, makes no admission in respect of any deduction which may be made from the reasons offered by the House of Commons, and does not consent that the said reasons should hereafter be drawn into a precedent."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY

My Lords, the matter is one of considerable nicety, and I am not myself sufficiently acquainted with the exact procedure of the House to be able to offer an opinion upon what the noble Marquess has proposed; but I cordially agree with him in saying that I have no doubt he has ascertained that this would be going further than has heretofore been necessary in the practice of Parliament, and that it is necessary this should be done to guard the privileges of the House as stated by the noble Marquess. I wish to say a word on the Amendment itself. I understand the effect of it will be to provide that while the schools may pay whatever surplus they have into a Common Fund, and may use it for the purposes of the associated schools, any sum which is so derived in excess of what they would have if they were separate schools shall not rank towards the calculation of the amount to be given by the Privy Council Office. If that be so, the result is that it meets the difficulty raised that otherwise we should be adding to the taxation of the country.

VISCOUNT CRANBROOK

That is so; I believe this will meet it altogether. There has been a difficulty felt in the matter, because if anything was paid in advance it might have the effect to which the noble Lord has alluded with regard to the money having reached the schools in the first instance. It is quite obvious that that objection is now obviated, and I move that this House do not insist upon its Amendment of Clause A, and in lieu thereof to insert the Clause I have read.

Commons Amendment agreed to.

Moved to resolve— That this House, in making the said Amendment, makes no admission with respect to any deduction that may be made from the reasons offered by the House of Commons, and does not consent that the said reasons should be hereafter drawn into a precedent."—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)

Motion agreed to.

Bill returned to the Commons.