§ LORD HERSCHELLMy Lords, the object of this Bill, which has passed through the other House by common consent without opposition, is to enable the Councils of counties to contribute out of their General Fund a sum which I believe has been fixed by arrangement with the Local Government Board not to exceed £31 10s. towards the expenses of an association of the County Councils. It has been found that great advantage has been derived from the association of the Municipal Councils, and the conclusion has been arrived at that advantage will also be derived if a similar course be taken by the newly-formed County Council. The principle is one which has been recognised as regards other Bodies. In the case of Poor Law Guardians, for example, there is power given for paying their expenses when they are attending Conferences on Poor Law matters generally. It is a very small sum; as I have stated, it is limited to £31 10s. in any year.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2ª."
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI do not know whether the noble and learned Lord is in a position to explain how that particular sum is arrived at. There is a singular particularity about it which is very striking, and I should be curious to know how it has been fixed.
§ LORD HERSCHELLI may explain that the sum is, in fact, 30 guineas. My noble and learned Friend, Lord Bramwell took great exception to the amount in guineas—he said the guinea was now an 105 antiquated sum; but I have not dared to touch it because that figure has been fixed by the Local Government Board as the limit beyond which they will not go.
* THE EARL OF JERSEYI think I can explain it. The sum of 30 guineas was fixed upon in order to enable the larger County Councils to pay a larger sum in proportion to the populations they represent. The smaller County Councils pay only 10 guineas. In Yorkshire, for instance, as they are entitled to pay more, they will have a larger representation. The £31 10s. is the limit. I have only further to say that the measure meets with the approval and support of the Local Government Board, and it is considered a very useful one.
* THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYPerhaps it is a formal sum like the 6s. 8d. which solicitors are accustomed to set down in their charges.
§ * EARL BEAUCHAMPThe explanation given by the noble Earl has rather relieved my mind. I must confess when I read this Bill and did the simple sum of multiplication required, I found that the sum to be raised would not be much short of £2,000 a year for the purpose of keeping up an organisation in order to enable County Councils to communicate with each other. Now, I think that sum is out of all proportion for such purposes, and that mischief might ensue from raising so much. I venture to submit to Her Majesty's Government, therefore, that some limit should be placed on this amount in accordance with the explanation given by the noble Earl. I do not think it would contribute to the satisfactory working of the County Councils if they are to have an office in London with an able secretary at a salary of £1,000 a year, who will have nothing to do but to stir up the County Councils to agitate in matters which are not at present committed to them. It would not conduce to the harmonious working of County Councils, and I would only point out to my noble Friend that if they acquire solidarity among them it will be impossible for them to refrain from urging their wishes in a voice of thunder at the doors of Downing Street; and I think the Government will be creating a Frankenstein for themselves if they allow this Bill to pass in its 106 present shape, and that they may hereafter find the monster they have created difficult to resist.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYI am perfectly aware that this has been regarded as a Bill for the purpose of enabling the screw to be applied to the Exchequer, but I am not afraid of a Frankenstein at £2,000 a year—we are accustomed to deal with much larger Frankensteins than that; and I think my right hon. Friend, Mr. Goschen, will be able to look upon this one with equanimity.
* THE EARL OF JERSEYWhen the rules were drafted the sum agreed upon as the subscription was 10 guineas for the ordinary County Councils. But then some of the Councils wanted larger representation, and it was agreed that if they had a larger representation they should pay more. It was intended that each County Council of ordinary size should only pay 10 guineas.
§ On Question, agreed to.
§ Bill read 2ª (according to order).
§ LORD HERSCHELLAs this Bill only consists of one clause of the most simple character, I think your Lordships will agree it is not worth while sending it to a Standing Committee in the ordinary way, and, therefore. I move that it be dealt with by a Committee of the whole House.
§ Bill committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.