HL Deb 21 July 1890 vol 347 cc310-8

Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.

* THE EARL OF ERNE

The objects of the Bill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time, and which I may say has passed the House of Commons practically without opposition, are two-fold: the first is to provide for the registration of chemists and druggists in Ireland, for the purpose of their selling poisons, who were in business before 1889, and for the examination of all persons who shall desire to become such henceforth. The second object is to give those chemists and druggists representation upon the Pharmaceutical Council, which they do not at present possess. The original Pharmacy Act, passed in the year 1875, contemplated two grades; the first grade to pass the higher examination and to be empowered to compound medicines, as well as to sell poisons: the second grade to pass a modified examination, and to be qualified to sell poisons only. But, in consequence of the absence of a restrictive clause in the Act, it was found that if the second-class were registered they would be entitled to do all that the first-class could do, that is to say, to compound medicines as well as sell poisons; and, in consequence, the Pharmaceutical Society of that day passed a resolution that, for the present at all events, there should only be one grade. After the passing of that Act nothing practically was done until the year 1888. In that year a Bill was introduced into Parliament by a Member of your Lordships' House, at whose sudden death all those who had the privilege of his friendship were deeply shocked and grieved, and whose loss has been keenly felt by all who are interested in Irish affairs, upon which he was so high an authority. I allude to the late Lord Milltown. He introduced a Bill in that year which passed through this House after having been referred to a Select Committee; but when it went down to the House of Commons it was opposed as being of too restrictive a character, and, after some negotiation, a compromise was effected, but unfortunately the period of the Session at which this compromise was arrived at was so late that the Bill had to be dropped. The Bill which I am now asking your Lordships to read a second time is mainly drawn upon the lines of that compromise. The necessity for this Bill arises from the defective nature of the Act of 1875, under which the Pharmaceutical Council considered they were prevented from registering the second grade, as was contemplated in the Act. In consequence of this condition of things a number of chemists and druggists throughout Ireland are carrying on the sale of poisons at their own peril, and are liable to prosecution; and I believe, in more than one instance, prosecutions are pending against members of that body. It may be said that the pharmaceutical chemists can supply the want which is admittedly felt; but the pharmaceutical chemists are of a superior class, and are only to be found in the large towns, and. it is, of course, of very great importance to the small farmers who are scattered up and down through the country that they should be able to buy their cattle medicines and sheep wash, and things of that kind—and also I may add that the same remark applies to the manufacturers in the North of Ireland in regard to their requirements in the way of chemicals for bleaching purposes, which are more or less in the nature of poisons—without having to go to the pharmaceutical chemists in the large towns. I believe that the chief objection which is taken to this Bill is in reference to the provisions for the registration of these chemists and druggists for the sale of poisons without their having to pass an examination. But I venture to suggest that that is really a matter for Committee, and if your Lordships will be good enough to give a Second Reading to this Bill it can there be more minutely considered and better dealt with. I beg to move the Second Reading of the Bill.

Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Fermanagh [E. Erne.])

* THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD (who spoke, by leave of the House, sitting)

My Lords, as I take great interest in the Bill which has been brought forward by the noble Earl, I would venture to say a few words upon it. It is a much more important Bill than the noble Earl has led your Lordships to suppose. This Bill has really the intention of permitting any man throughout Ireland who chooses to call himself a chemist or druggist to act in that capacity without an examination. There was an Act passed, called the Pharmacy Act, in 1875, by which it was enacted that after that time all persons who wished to carry on the trade of a chemist should pass an examination. Unfortunately that Act was not very carefully drawn, and there was no proper provision made for registering chemists and druggists in practice before 1875. Well, that made it most difficult for the Pharmaceutical Society of Ireland, who look after such matters, to ascertain (because the onus of proof rested upon them) who were the people who were entitled to carry on this trade without examination. There was another flaw in this Act of Parliament. It provided for an arrangement by which two grades could be created in Ireland, the members of one of which were to be pharmaceutical chemist. I believe the Act was drawn by Sir Michael Hicks Beach in 1875, and he arranged to make it as much like the English Act as possible. In England, both classes pass an examination that would entitle them to have the making up of prescriptions; the procedure in Ireland is rather different from that in England. The men who had been in the habit of selling poisons did not seek to be allowed to make up prescriptions, and they did not want to pass an examination, and they wished to continue as before. This Bill now provides that everybody who has been breaking the law since 1875 should be recognised and should be allowed to continue to sell poisons without examination. I can hardly believe that your Lordships will agree to such a proposal as that. The noble' Earl suggested that the Bill might be amended in Committee; and I hope sincerely that it will be, because if there were not a promise of that kind made I should most decidedly move the rejection of the Bill. Perhaps your Lordships can hardly imagine the difficulties which would occur from the recognition of such a state of things as exists at present in Ireland, where such men as grocers, hucksters, dealers, and ironmongers are all selling poisons. A grocer may be serving out pounds of butter having beside it oxalic acid on the same shelf, and another man may be selling baking powder which is lying beside arsenic. These men are all perfectly unqualified, they pass no examination whatever, and this Bill is to legalise them and perpetuate the mischief. What I should propose would be that the Bill should be amended very much in Committee. I may tell your Lordships that the Act of 1875 did legalise and permit such men as these to sell poisons without examination if in practice before 1875, but they had been in the habit of doing it and had some experience. Since 1875 a large number of men have taken up the trade, and are selling poisons indiscriminately all over Ireland. The noble Earl spoke of the desirability of small farmers being able to get poisons for cattle and sheep washes, but in these days, with the existence of the Parcels Post, there is no difficulty in people getting whatever they want from the pharmaceutical chemists in the towns. The noble Earl said that this Bill is virtually the same as the compromise measure of the Earl of Milltown, but I cannot quite agree with him.

* THE EARL OF ERNE

I said as altered in the House of Commons.

* THE MAEQUESS OF WATERFORD

I cannot agree with the noble Earl, because that was in the direction of registration on examination, and the point of this Bill is no examination. One of the main points of that Bill was that examination should be enforced. Therefore on the main point that measure differed materially from this Bill. A general practitioner from Belfast, Mr. Rankin, gave very important evidence before Lord Mi11town's Committee upon this point. He said that if men of this description, hucksters, grocers, and men of that description, were allowed to sell poisons throughout Ireland it would imperil the lives of the public. I think your Lordships will agree with that, that it certainly would imperil the lives of the public. But to my astonishment I find that Mr. Rankin is one of the promoters of this Bill, and the fact is that Mr. Rankin himself has been carrying on the sale of poisons against the law, and was not very long ago brought up before the Magistrates in Belfast and fined £5 for so doing. Hence, I believe, one of the reasons why this Bill has been brought forward is, Mr. Rankin is Secretary of the Druggists, Association in Belfast. I have also seen a paragraph in a paper which is called the British and Colonial Druggists' paper, I forget its exact title, in which it is suggested that the druggists throughout Ireland should begin to make up prescriptions; that is to say, that these men who pass no examination and have no knowledge whatever of the subject should begin to make up prescriptions, in order to cause the Pharmaceutical Society to prosecute them all, and thus, as the Pharmaceutical Society has but a small amount of fund at their disposal, that they should break the Pharmaceutical Society, and by doing so get themselves recognised. That shows the animus with which this Bill is brought forward. I am told that the great misfortune in Ireland is that the police do not prosecute those men who are breaking the law. I believe that in England in the analogous cases of the sale of adulterated foods or anything of that kind the police do prosecute. There was evidence before Lord Milltown's Committee of a case of poisoning which occurred before 1886 being brought before the attention of the police, and where the police refused to prosecute. I think it is a very serious matter that this illegal practice should have been going on in Ireland of selling poisons indiscriminately all over the country, and that yet you should have the police taking no notice of it whatever. The Pharmaceutical Society no doubt do prosecute, but the onus of proof rests with that Society, and their funds have only enabled them to bring forward very few cases where they could institute prosecutions. This is a very serious matter, and I think the Irish Government ought to take notice of it. There are certain points which I think ought to be amended in this Bill, but I will not detain your Lordships with them now; I will only express the hope that the noble Earl will agree to the amendment of those points when the Bill comes into Committee.

LORD HERSCHELL

My Lords, my attention was only called to this Bill this morning, but I have received some letters and a telegram of rather an alarming character with regard to its provisions. It comes no doubt from a source from which one would not have expected correspondence of that description. One correspondent alleges that— The Bill would place a premium on illegality by encouraging it at the expense of the law-abiding. And I am sure that everyone will agree that is not a good thing for the Government to do in regard to Ireland either at the present or at any other time. Another correspondent writes— It is very hard that political services, such as have been rendered to the Conservative Party by wholesale chemists and druggists, should be rewarded at the expense of the public morality and by danger to the public safety in the manner proposed. Those two quotations show, I think, that this Bill will require very careful consideration, the necessity for which has been added to by the details which have been entered into by the noble Marquess who has just spoken.

THE DUKE OF ABERCORN

I do not rise for the purpose of assisting to raise any controversy upon this Bill, but to emphasise that it is an important measure, affecting Ireland very materially as to the sale of poisons. I do not know but that there would be some difficulty in regard to people selling whatever may be required near the large towns, but in the country that is not the case. There there is no difficulty in obtaining them, and therefore it has been thought necessary that this Bill should be brought in for the purpose of licensing this large class of persons, some 2,000 in number, I think, to sell poisons. This Bill has met with some opposition from the Pharmaceutical Society, but that body does not wish that the Bill should not pass. On the contrary, they are anxious that it should become law; but they are also anxious that it should only pass with certain Amendments which they will propose at a fitting time. The Amendments which they propose refer to the number of chemists and druggists who have been practising since 1875 under the old Act, and they think that if those persons are to be registered they should pass a very small examination, in order to prove their fitness to sell these poisons and dangerous drugs. Another Amendment which they wish to be introduced is as to the position of their Council. But these matters will, I hope, be gone into in detail in Committee, and I should venture to hope that the noble Earl who is at the head of Irish affairs in this House might be willing that this Bill should be referred to the Standing Committee, where all the Amendments that may be proposed can be fully gone into. But, whatever may happen, your Lordships will agree with me, I think, that poisons should not be permitted to be sold in Ireland in this way at a wholesale rate. Although my noble and learned Friend seemed to think that the Conservative Party owe something to those who had to do with the selling of poisons, I hope no bad result has taken place from it. At the same time, if poisons are allowed to be sold without restriction wholesale all over the country, great harm might be done, persons might disappear on such occasions, and it would then be rather hard to find out whence the poisons had been derived. Therefore, I think the restrictions which the Pharmaceutical Society desire should be placed on the sale of poisons will receive due consideration when the Bill comes before the Committee.

* LORD MORRIS

I should not have intervened in this discussion had it not been for the suggestion of my noble and learned Friend opposite, that this Bill has been promoted for the advantage of persons in the Conservative interest in Belfast, because I have been asked to oppose it on the opposite ground. I have been asked to oppose the Bill on the ground that it has been supported by the Member for Belfast, whorepresents Nationalist views, and from the fact that some of his colleagues who had given notice of opposition had been solicited to withdraw, and did withdraw, their notices of opposition. So that it appears persons have been asked to oppose this Bill, and solicited to do so from a variety of motives. It appears to me that the Bill ought to be allowed to pass the Second Reading, and that in Standing Committee all the modifications that may be necessary in it can be there made.

* THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)

My Lords, I was under the impression that the Bill was for a very technical purpose and of a somewhat dull character; but after the statement of my noble and learned Friend opposite there appeal's to be some fear that if this Debate should be prolonged we should be landed in a discussion more exciting than was to be expected. I rise merely to say that the Bill has received the countenance and support of the Government in the other House. It is the result of a compromise which was effected between certain Members of the other House last Session upon Amendments on the Bill of Lord Milltown. As far as the principle of the Bill is concerned, the Government is prepared on the present occasion also to support it. On the other hand, I am bound to say that the points which have been mentioned by the noble Marquess behind and others certainly seem to render it desirable that the Bill should receive careful consideration in Committee. I should be very glad that the suggestion of the noble Duke should be adopted, and, if it be the wish of the House, that the Bill should be referred to the Standing Committee on General Bills, when the Amendments which have been mentioned by my noble Friend can be carefully taken into consideration.

* THE EARL OF ERNE

I am quite prepared to accede to the suggestion of my noble Friend that this Bill, if your Lordships will consent to read it a second time, should be referred to the Standing Committee on General Bills.

On Question, agreed to.

Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to the Standing Committee for General Bills.