HL Deb 20 May 1889 vol 336 cc498-504
THE EARL OF HOWTH ,

in rising to direct the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the letter in the Times of the 17th of May from the Chief Secretary for Ireland referring to certain Irish industries, and addressed to Sir Albert Rollit, M.P., and to move that a period has arrived when it is expedient for Her Majesty's Government to declare whether it is their intention to tender any material aid to the Irish fishery industry, said: I am well aware how great the difficulties of a financial nature have been in this matter in the way of Her Majesty's Government. I certainly do not mean at the present time to press for any great liberality on their part, but while I do not desire to suggest any further liberality on the part of the Government, at the same time, in this fourth Session of the present Parliament, I hardly think Her Majesty's Government can take exception to the terms of the Motion which I have made, that they shall declare "whether it is their intention to tender any material aid to the Irish fishery industry. Last Friday, correspondence which had passed between Sir Albert Rollit and Mr. Balfour, the Secretary for Ireland, was published in the Times, and I propose to read to your Lordships the two letters. Sir Albert Rollit wrote:— Dear Mr. Balfour,—You were good enough to say, when I saw you yesterday upon the subject of Irish railways, that you would inform me of the present position and prospects of the industrial measures promised for Ireland. I shall be very glad if you will kindly do this, and if you will, so far as possible, expedite the progress of the Irish railway and other remedial Bills. My anxiety that every reasonable wish on the part of Irishmen shall, if possible, be conceded, and that the firm basis of a union of interests should be established between the two countries, is my reason for approaching you on this matter, and I feel sure that it will be accepted as a sufficient one. The reply of the Chief Secretary was:— Dear Sir Albert,—I hope in a few days to re-introduce my Drainage Bills, and at the same time to propose a measure which will facilitate the construction of light railways in those parts of Ireland which most need them, and which, from the nature of the case, are least able to provide such railways for themselves. The Drainage Bills have, of course, long been ready. There has been a greater delay than I should have wished in the preparation of the Railway Bills, through reasons which at this moment it is unnecessary to go into; but this will not, I think, in any way imperil the progress of the measures if, as I hope, they are accepted by all Parties in the House in a friendly spirit. I need not say that I quite agree with you as to the extreme desirability of furthering in every possible way the material prosperity of Ireland. As regards the response to Sir Albert Rollit's letter, the spirit in which it was written by the Chief Secretary is, I need not say, highly satisfactory. But there are one or two matters to which he alluded to which I will refer. One was the allusion to obstruction. I think it only right to say that the obstruction which is most to be feared to the passage of such measures as are referred to in Mr. Balfour's letter is from those Irish Members who object to additional burdens being imposed upon land to provide guarantees for Irish railways. Of course, there are arguments which may be used on both sides in this matter, but I hope some early opportunity may be taken of thoroughly dealing with it. The next paragraph of that letter to which I will allude is with reference to the light railways. They are, of course, in every sense desirable, and are the subject of recommendation by the Royal Commission. Nearly all the light railways lead down to the seaside, and therefore are to the advantage of the fisheries; but they would be of very little use unless a reduction in the rate of carriage for fish were effected. If the Government had had the question of the Irish industries at heart they might have found many opportunities of placing important measures on the Estimates and of getting them passed without opposition. I venture to say that if Lord Randolph Churchill were still Chancellor of the Exchequer, instead of Mr. Goschen, the Government might meet the matter in a more generous spirit. I hope Her Majesty's Government will strongly appreciate the desirability of, at a future period, giving a faithful pledge that the fisheries of the country will be encouraged. The Irish industries have been mentioned in no fewer than three Addresses to the Throne, and the late Government in 1383 passed a Light Railway and Tramway Act, by which they incurred a responsibility of £2,000,000. I desire, my Lords, to endeavour to impress Her Majesty's Government with the responsibilities that are attached to these industries, and therefore I go back as far as the time when Lord Randolph Churchill was Chancellor of the Exchequer. He fully recognized those responsibilities, and if he were still filling that office I think, perhaps, the Irish industries might have had a more advanced position in the legislation of Parliament. We have, however, only touched the fringe of the subject, and it is important for us to consider when we come to dwell on the interests of Ireland what amount of financial assistance we may expect from the Government, because it is in reality a question of financial responsibility, and the way in which that is dealt with will clearly prove whether the Government is or is not willing to help those industries. When we consider that the efforts of the late Government did some little good for the Irish industries, we may see to what extent the Imperial Government might have done more. It is, however, perfectly certain that when they appointed the Royal Commission to inquire into the condition of those industries, that was a measure of immense popularity in this country. To this day we see notices and letters from time to time on the subject in the newspapers, and I am quite sure that readers of newspapers must be quite tired of seeing letters written on the subject of these Irish industries. There is not the slightest doubt of their im- portance, but from the interest taken by Her Majesty's Government in them, there has been a very remarkable departure in this matter. It has been very clearly laid down by the Royal Commission that drainage should occupy the first position in legislative interference; the second position must be taken by the fisheries, and the third by the railways. I quite admit the difficulties of Her Majesty's Government, which probably account for the style of the explanations which have been made on the subject, but I sincerely trust that before the labours of the present Session are at an end we may look forward to more liberal treatment. I should like to put before your Lordships the present conditions of the Irish industries, and I may say they are favourable. In 1883, as I have said, the late Government, without very much ostentation, assisted one section of them by making the Exchequer of the country liable for £2,000,000 at 2 per cent, representing £40,000 per annum, under their Light Railway and Tramway Act. Owing to defects in that Act the occupiers have not taken as much advantage of it as might have been expected, but the Royal Commission reported that the flaw was capable of easy amendment. Only £13,000 per annum is, up to the present, being expended on the light railways and tramways, and, therefore, there is actually a sum of at least £27,000 a year, representing a oapital of £1,300,000 at the disposal of the present Government for any step they may take, without any further drain upon the Exchequer. That was a free gift or legacy from the Liberal Government to the present Government. My interpretation of Mr. Balfour's letter is that if it is possible for legislation to take place, the Government will do something more in the matter this year, but I think that the light railways must be placed to the credit of the late Government. I speak strongly on this subject, my Lords, for the purpose of securing liberal support from the Government to the Irish fisheries. They have a free hand in the matter. They are not hampered with the railways, and they have this sum in hand. That is a strong argument in our favour, and I hope we shall have something done by next year. There is another reason for liberality on the part of the Government. It is quite clear they gained great popularity by their promise to bring forward some measure, and it is perfectly clear that they have not earned that popularity. Their conscience must tell them so. I am sure the conscience of the Government must tell them they owe the Irish industries a great deal on account of the popularity they have secured on that account, and I hope under these circumstances, my Lords, Her Majesty's Government will deal liberally in this matter. In conclusion, I venture, with every respect, to impress upon your Lordships again, that references have repeatedly been introduced into the Addresses to Her Gracious Majesty to the subject of these Irish industries. My Lords, as I said before, it is an important question. You are not called upon to do very much, or to show very much liberality; but I sincerely trust we shall hear something very soon to show that we may expect some liberality from the Government in this matter. I may venture to remind your Lordships that it is going to be brought forward in another place.

Moved to resolve— That a period has arrived when it is expedient for Her Majesty's Government to declare whether it is their intention to tender any material aid to the Irish fishery industry." (The Lord Howth, E. Howth.)

EARL CADOGAN

My Lords, I have endeavoured on several occasions to reply to Motions similar to this one on the part of the noble Earl on the question of Irish industries, and especially of Irish Fisheries. The noble Earl has now moved, That a period has arrived when it is expedient for Her Majesty's Government to delare whether it is their intention to tender any material aid to the Irish fishery industry. And he has founded his speech on the fact that the Chief Secretary for Ireland has addressed a letter to a gentleman lately, in which it is stated that the Government intend, in the course of the present year, to lay on the Table of the other House the Bills for arterial drainage in Ireland, which were brought in but not passed last Session, and that in addition it is in contemplation to introduce a measure for providing light railways in that country. Under those circumstances I had hardly thought that this would be the time chosen by the noble Earl for asking the Government to state what are their intentions as to those measures. When my right hon. Friend introduces the Bills, he will declare at the same time what is the policy of the Government and what are the details of the measures. The noble Earl has referred to the order in which the various recommendations of the Royal Commission were dealt with by the Government, and he appears to think that because the Chief Secretary for Ireland proposes to introduce measures relating to arterial drainage, and also a measure in regard to light railways, therefore the Government are neglecting the question of the fisheries. If he still look at the second Report of the Royal Commission he will find, under the head "Fisheries," that the Commissioners speak of light railways as being calculated to facilitate the carrying fish to market, and thereby to aid and improve the fishing industry in Ireland. Therefore, in introducing a measure as to railways, it cannot be said that they are neglecting the fishing industry. On the other hand, there is little chance of passing a Fisheries Bill in the same Session as the other measures to which I have referred. I hope, therefore, that the noble Earl will again accept my assurance that the Government are in earnest, and have all along been in earnest, not only in appointing the Royal Commission, but also in the introduction of measures to carry out the recommendations contained in its very able Report. I wish it were in my power to give further information at the present moment, but from what I have been able to say on the matter the intentions of the Government can hardly be doubted.

THE EARL OF HOWTH

My Lords, I accept the statement of the noble Earl. At the same time, I think there ought to be a very distinct and decided declaration made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland in reference to the measures to be adopted with regard to the fisheries of the country. My object in speaking as warmly as I have done is to advocate the interests of Ireland by the encouragement of its industries, and not from any desire whatever to make statements which could embarrass the Government. I do hope the noble Earl will impress the necessity of dealing with this matter upon the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and of making as clear a declara- tion as possible. My Lords, I can only say again, in conclusion, that I have been actuated solely by a desire for the advancement of the Irish industries.

Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.