(No. 278.) COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 27 November 1888)

§ LORD FITZGERALD
, in moving in line 12, after ("districts,") to insert ("the population of which exceeds 5,000,") said, he thought it was unwise to extend the provisions of the English Borough Funds Act to all the townships of Ireland, because the municipal institutions of England were widely different in regard to size from the townships that existed in Ireland. There were about 105 townships in Ireland, and, excluding the large towns, there were very few of them between 5,000 and 10,000 inhabitants. Their Lordships would appreciate the importance of this matter when he stated that some of the Irish townships were so small that there were 30 of those townships whose income from rates and other wise did not exceed £200 a-year. Some of them had an income as low as £64 a-year, and one of them, he believed, had only an income of £30 a-year. It appeared to him, therefore, that it would be highly inexpedient to entrust such townships with the power to originate 279 expensive litigation. He thought his proposal limitating the operation of the Bill to townships of 5,000 inhabitants was a very moderate one; but, if the noble Earl in charge of the Bill did not think so, he was willing to meet him, and make the limit 4,000.

§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)
said, he should be very unwilling to reject any Amendment which commended itself to the knowledge and experience of the noble and learned Lord, but in that case he was afraid he could not accept the Amendment. The object of the Bill was to assimilate the law in Ireland in regard to the application of municipal funds to the law in England, and it appeared to him that any limitation, such as that proposed by this Amendment, would create a difference between the law of the two countries without any corresponding benefit to Ireland. The provision requiring the approbation of the Local Government Board and the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant to be obtained would suffice to prevent the misapplication of the funds by the local bodies. He hoped, therefore, the noble and learned Lord would not press the Amendment. He also trusted that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Arran), who intended to propose to limit the operation of the Bill to townships of 8,000 inhabitants, would accept his observations in the same sense, and not move his Amendment.

THE EARL OF ARRAN
intimated that he did not intend to move his Amendment.

§ LORD FITZGERALD
said, he would not press his amendment.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN
said, that as the Bill stood it required that no such expense should be charged unless it was incurred in pursuance of a resolution of an absolute majority of the whole number of the governing body. That majority, however, might be a majority of one, and he therefore proposed as an Amendment that the required majority should consist of not less than three-fourths of the governing body. If one-fourth of the whole governing body were opposed to that expenditure of the rates, it ought not, in his opinion, to be undertaken.

§ EARL CADOGAN
said, he must object to the Amendment because it would impose a limitation which was not contained in the English Act, and it was desirable to adhere as strictly as they could to the words of the English Act. He hoped that the Amendment would not be pressed.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN
supposed it was of no use pressing the Amendment, but, although it was desirable as far as possible to assimilate the law in Ireland and in England, he thought it was hardly a good reason for applying a faulty provision to Ireland that now existed in England.

§ EARL CADOGAN
said, if the noble Lord (Viscount De Vesci) referred to the beginning of Clause 3 he would find that there were two objects proposed in this application of municipal funds. The first object was that of promoting or opposing any local and personal Bill or Bills in Parliament, and the second, or alternative, object was that of prosecuting or defending any legal proceedings necessary for the promotion or protection of the interests of the inhabitants of the district. The noble Lord would, perhaps, see that if his 281 Amendment were inserted in Clause 5 he would limit the effect of the Act to the case of the promoting or opposing of Bills in Parliament, and would exclude the other purposes which he had just referred to as provided for in Clause 3. The result would be that the funds might be supplied for those purposes without the control of the ratepayers or the constituencies under the Bill. He imagined that it would scarcely commend itself to the approval of the noble Lord, and he hoped he would not press his Amendment.

LORD DE VESCI
said, he hoped the noble Earl would not press his Amendment. In the Public Health Act of 1875 a poll could be demanded by anyone, owner or ratepayer.

§ EARL CADOGAN
said, he must press at least for five.

§ EARL CADOGAN
said, the Schedule referred to contained 50 clauses, many of which it was impossible to embody in a Bill of this kind. The clauses applied to constituencies in England which were uniform, and in that respect they differed from those in Ireland. He was led to believe that the object in view was to obtain an enactment for the use of voting papers at those elections. He would frame a new clause in order to carry out that object, but at present he could not accept the Amendment.

§ EARL CADOGAN
said, he would accept the Amendment. He suggested that instead of "ratepayer" the wording should read—"Any person qualified to vote at the election of the governing body of the district."