§ THE EARL OF HARROWBY, in rising to call attention to the condition of affairs in the New Hebrides, and to ask, What course is proposed to be taken with reference to this important subject by Her Majesty's Government? said, he desired to draw the attention of the House to the continued presence of French soldiers in the Islands of the New Hebrides, although there stands on record a diplomatic understanding between France and England that neither Power should do anything in contravention of the independence of the Islands. He submitted that the subject was an important one from three points of view. In the first place, it was important from the Native point of view; secondly, from the Imperial and Australian point of view; and thirdly, and still more important, because if it was the fact that French troops were still in occupation of these Islands, the sanctity of all International engagements was called in question, or, rather, would be called in question, if such an occupation was sanctioned by the Go- 497 vernment of France. He could not but believe that it was the rashness or over-zeal of Local Authorities which had kept French troops in the Islands, for unless he had strong evidence to the contrary, he should be very unwilling to suppose that the French Government would, for one moment, take the line of showing such complete disregard of International undertakings. The presence of the French troops was a clear breach of the International engagement, and if it were likely to be sanctioned by the Government of France a serious breach would occur. The Islands, he might remind their Lordships, were discovered in the first instance by Captain Cook, and under the Charter of 1840 they were included in the Colony of New Zealand. They consisted of about 30 Islands, extending over a length of ocean of about 400 miles North and South. They were extremely rich, were more healthy than the rest of the Pacific Islands, and contained several valuable harbours. The population, numbering from 100,000 to 150,000, were rapidly becoming civilized, and the story of their civilization and Christianization by the Reformed Presbyterian Church of Scotland was one of the most creditable in our history. So far as any European language went English was the only tongue known in the Islands, and the feeling of the Natives towards English people was exceedingly friendly. In every Island an Englishman might go about unarmed, though he did not know that quite the same could be said with regard to other nationalities. Australia was especially interested in these Islands from their proximity to her shores, and she was in a panic lest they should become the home of the relapsed criminals from France. In quite recent times both France and Germany had shown their appreciation of the strategic and commercial importance of the group. He thought we had a right, when we found those Islands civilized entirely by British enterprize, Christianized by Scotch enterprize, and wholly British in feeling, to protest against their being handed over to any other country. France, of course, would like to have the Islands for a labour supply to her Colony of New Caledonia. That labour question in the Pacific was one of the most terrible blots in our modern civilization. A French Admiral who had held a high position in the 498 Government recently stated in the Senate that the labour that France got from the New Hebrides was simply another form of downright slavery, and that might be accepted as undoubtedly true. In the French Chamber it had been announced that New Caledonia could not take more convicts, and that it would be well if she could get them over to the New Hebrides. Anything more pitiable than such a result he could not imagine. What was the legal position now between France and England as to the New Hebrides? Lord Derby wrote to the Colonial Office in February, 1878, inclosing a letter from the French Ambassador, calling attention to articles in Australian newspapers advocating the annexation of the New Hebrides to the British Crown, and stating that though the French Government did not attach great importance to this annexation movement, still, as they themselves had no intentions with regard to that group, they would be glad to have an assurance to that effect from Her Majesty's Government. Lord Derby informed the Colonial Office that he proposed, if they concurred, to inform the French Ambassador that Her Majesty's Government had no intention of proposing any measures to Parliament with a view of changing the condition of independence which the New Hebrides then enjoyed. The Secretary for the Colonies concurred in this answer. As time went on the feeling in favour of annexation became stronger and stronger in Australia, and alarmed the French Government. A communication was made to Her Majesty's Government that the Government of the Republic felt it their duty to ascertain whether the Declarations of 1878 still remained as valid in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government as in that of France, as otherwise they would feel it their duty to insist on the maintenance of the existing state of things. In a despatch to Lord Lyons, the noble Earl who was then at the head of Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville) had said that the Agreement of 1878 was considered by Her Majesty's Government to be perfectly valid. On the 31st of August, 1883, the English Chargé d'Affaires informed Lord Granville that he had left at the French Foreign Office a note verbale to this effect. Lord Derby, when at the Foreign Office, had assured the Australian 499 Colonies that no proposal for the annexation of the New Hebrides would be entertained without consulting the Australian Colonies, and also without securing conditions satisfactory to those Colonies. When the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Rosebery) had been Foreign Secretary an offer had been made by France to give up the transportation of relapsed criminals if she might take the New Hebrides. That was refused by the Australian Colonies on being consulted, and the noble Earl had then informed the French Government of that refusal. There the matter rested; but in June, 18S6, without any formal annexation on the part of France, or without the Central Government at Paris being in any way connected with the matter, French troops were placed on the Island. From a letter which he had received from a well-known Scotch gentleman at Melbourne, he understood that the French still occupied a military station and were erecting what appeared to be permanent buildings, and putting up wooden sheds either for convicts or for additional troops. He had had another letter, dated December 6, 1886, from another Scotch gentleman at Havannah Harbour, Exatè, stating that on June 1 a military post had been established in that harbour with over 100 French Marines, and immediately afterwards a similar post had been established at Port Sandwich. He thought that these letters would justify him in bringing this matter before their Lordships' House, as it was a matter which ought to be decided quickly one way or another. The Government had shown no undue pressure in the matter, and, on the other hand, he believed that the Central Government in Franco had in no way been committed to this infraction of the Treaty. It might be said that this occupation had been rendered necessary on account of outrages; but he had made inquiries, and had found that no serious cases of outrage had been brought home to the inhabitants of the New Hebrides. As often as not what were called outrages were the result of the abominable system of labour trade which prevailed in those parts, and which had done more to set the Natives of the Islands against the Whites than anything which could be done. He would, therefore, implore Her Majesty's Government, in the interests of the Natives, in 500 the interests of our Australian Colonies, in the interests of our Imperial and commercial obligations, but, above all, in the interest of the sacredness of good faith in public International Agreements, to take up this matter and bring to a termination the French occupation. As Germany had recently shown, there was no need for any sense of wounded pride, and no humiliation, in an admission on the part of a great nation that it had done a wrong act.
§ THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY)My noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby) has made a very interesting speech, and I only feel very great regret that it is not in my power to give him in return anything nearly so valuable or so interesting. The truth is, I heard with some dismay my noble Friend go from point to point on matters which have been laid before the House, and I have very little indeed to add to what he has said. My noble Friend will understand that there are matters which he has discussed, and which he has a perfect right to discuss, but into which it would not be right for me to follow him. For example, I could not examine the motives which induced the French Government to attach value to the New Hebrides, and the same reason likewise precludes me from examining into motives which have induced the Australian Colonies to look upon these Islands with exceptional interest. There is no doubt of the International state of the case—that France and England have engaged to each other not to annex the New Hebrides, and there is no doubt that at this moment the French Government is in occupation of these Islands; but that they have assured us, in tones whose earnestness and sincerity we have no right to doubt, that they have no intention of permanently occupying those Islands; and, therefore, no definite character ought to be attached to their proceedings. They have informed Her Majesty's Government that they have been obliged to take the step they have taken, solely in consequence of the outrages which have occurred. There have been outrages—we do not quite know how many; but, undoubtedly, certain persons in 1885 were killed, and several others wounded and attacked. The position of the French Government is that 501 as soon as satisfactory arrangements can be made by which the peace of the Islands can be maintained, and Europeans can be preserved from danger of outbreak, they would be glad to withdraw their troops. Her Majesty's Government have made proposals for the purpose of carrying this object into effect. These proposals have not been rejected, neither have they been absolutely accepted. Under the pressure of political events which have happened internally and externally upon France during the last six months, the negotiations have not gone on with that rapidity which we should like to see. We have, upon more than one occasion, called attention to the delay, and the French Government have always assured us that they were prepared to make proposals, and I believe that the French Ambassador is likely to make a communication of some importance in the course of the present week. I can make no further answer, except to assure my noble Friend that I am as fully sensible as he is of the sacredness of the International engagement which prevents both France and England from occupying these Islands of the New Hebrides, and Her Majesty's Government have no intention of departing on their side from the engagement.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, he was far from urging on the Government to take any other course than they had taken, and he did not doubt that the noble Marquess the Prime Minister had kept that course adequately in view and had expressed his opinion to the French Government; but he was sure the answer would cause great disappointment in the Australian Colonies and among those in this country who were interested in the question. Could the noble Marquess state whether there were any ships of war in the vicinity of the New Hebrides? He should be glad to learn that the British ships of war which were at the New Hebrides last May were still there, and whether there was any force representing our interests in the Islands. That was a matter of some importance, as showing that we attached weight to the question.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he could not answer the Question without Notice. It was his impression that some of Her Majesty's ships had been there from time to time. There was, however, no permanent station there, and whether 502 there were any ships there at this present moment he could not say.
THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, no one in England who had followed these matters closely, and no one in Australasia, could avoid regretting its present position, or could regard the present state of things as satisfactory. With regard to these Islands an understanding had, so far back as 1840, been come to between this country and the French Government that their independence should be respected. In 1858 a definite agreement to this effect was entered into, and that agreement had for years been recognized by successive English Governments and by the French Government. Now, however, after several years of pour parlers on the subject the French flag was to be found flying there. It was difficult to reconcile this with the amiable theory set up by his noble Friend (the Earl of Harrowby) who introduced the subject that it might be the indiscreet act of some agent or imprudent officer on a foreign station. He was sorry that this was not the only case of this nature which had arisen. There was another group of Islands, well known to Colonists and mariners—the Society group—one of which formed the subject in 1847 of a distinct reciprocal agreement between this country and France that its independence should be respected. Yet for at least five or six years the French flag had been flying upon it, notwithstanding all protests and complaints that had been received on the subject. At the great distance England was from these Islands and the scene of these transactions, and owing to attention being diverted at home by the multiplicity of political questions, matters had been occurring in the South Pacific which often escaped our attention, but which to the great Colonies were questions of life and death. He did not make any charge against the French Government—or oven a complaint—it was, perhaps, very creditable to French policy and foresight; but if their Lordships took a map and referred to the present state of things in the Eastern part of the South Pacific, they could not fail to be struck with the enormous amount of the recent French annexations. Tahiti, for instance, which some years ago nearly led to a collision between the two countries, was till lately under French protection. Recently the 503 protectorate had been converted into sovereignty. Similarly the Society Islands, Rapa, the Austral group, and the mass of the Islands that went by the name of the Lower Archipelago had, in recent years, been annexed. The desire for territory, and the wise foresight which looked to the opening of the Panama Canal, accounted partly for what had taken place. Turning from the East to the West Pacific, where Australian interests mainly lay, a similar state of things existed. In the West Pacific there was the great French Colony of New Caledonia, peopled by convicts; there were the Loyalty Islands, and, if the New Hebrides were by any accident transferred to the jurisdiction of France, there would stretch a great block of intervening Islands between Australia and Fiji—all under the French flag—and which might be described as our outpost on the other side. Whatever might be thought of these things in this country, no Australian would, or could, or ought to regard the prospect without a feeling of considerable anxiety. He could not say what were our precise relations with other countries with which we came into contact in the Pacific. No one who was not in Office could exactly tell. But he had no reason to believe these relations were otherwise than satisfactory. About three years ago their Lordships might remember that an important agreement was come to between this country and Germany by which the two Governments agreed to delimit their jurisdiction—their spheres of influence it would be more correct to say—in the South Pacific. The result of this had been that, so far as Germany was concerned, the chances of friction had been very much lessened. He would throw out for the consideration of Her Majesty's Government the suggestion whether some such understanding might not be arrived at with France as regarded the same seas. The noble Earl pointed out strong reasons why this matter should be satisfactorily settled without delay. There were two special reasons for this. It was a question that closely affected the natives of the South Pacific. He (the Earl of Carnarvon), about 1876 and 1877, was the author of two Acts which created the Office of High Commissioner with jurisdiction to deal with all cases of outrage on natives, especially such as arose out of the labour 504 traffic. Those Acts had done great good, but they had not altogether attained their object. It was not possible for the British Government to give the High Commissioner jurisdiction over foreigners, or natives, in any but British Islands. He earnestly recommended the Prime Minister to consider whether some amendment of the existing state of things, which allowed a large part of the criminal and uncivilized community in those quarters to escape jurisdiction, could not be come to by the consent and co-operation of foreign Powers. There used to be a mixed Slave Trade Court which worked very well in the Slave Trade days; and he believed this Slave Trade Commission—which, as he said, formerly existed—might contain a suggestion for a precedent. There was another reason which rendered the settlement of the matter urgent—namely, the Recidivist question in New Caledonia. That was a very large and important question, and one that had moved the Australian public mind to its lowest depths. Until this question of the New Hebrides—with which it was connected—should have been settled it would remain, he feared, a burning question, containing in itself the germs of future anxiety, trouble, and possible danger.
§ EARL GRANVILLEI rise to express my gratification that, being in Office, the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) seems to think that there is some weight in the principle which I was in the habit of asserting, that an answer should not be hastily given without Notice to Questions relating to important foreign affairs. There is still this difference between us, however. When I laid down that principle I adhered to it, and did not answer Questions until after Notice; whereas the noble Marquess, after enunciating the principle, has really told us how the matter stands to which the Question put to him refers. There is certainly no one more anxious than I am to avoid causing any feelings of unnecessary excitement between our great neighbours the French and ourselves. The proof of this is, that when we first received the news of the landing of French troops in the New Hebrides, and considered the advisability of sending immediately ships of war to the scene, we hesitated to do so, lest it should cause unnecessary 505 irritation. A short time afterwards, however, on getting further information, we agreed that it was desirable to send British ships, not as a menace or in any spirit of hostility, but in order to put the two countries on the same footing. Since then, as far as I know, the occupation has been consistently disowned by the French Government, who have always given us assurances that they do not desire the occupation of the New Hebrides, and that they intend to adhere to the International agreement. Last year the noble Earl near me repeated that assurance, which he had recently received from the French Government. But now that this French occupation of the shore had gone on, not only for weeks and months, but for more than a year, a change in our policy, and a reversal of the order that ships shall be on the spot, may exercise an unfavourable impression, especially on the Colonial mind. I am glad, therefore, to hear from the noble Marquess that he is about to receive an important communication from the French Government. In conclusion, let me say that no one can desire more heartily than myself that the communications between the Governments may lead to a really satisfactory result for the French nation, ourselves, and our Colonial fellow subjects.