THE DUKE OF ST. ALBANSI beg to ask Her Majesty's Government, What is the present position of the claim against the Corporation of Limerick for extra police; whether it can be legally enforced; if so, why this has not been done; and, if part or all of such claim has been relinquished by the Government, on whom this payment will fall; also to ask whether it is true, as reported in the newspapers, that the Corporation of Limerick has recently repudiated its liability to contribute to the repayment of the money advanced out of the Public finances for the purposes of the district lunatic asylum? I desire to point out that this is an old story, but I trust your Lordships will not consider that I have unduly trespassed on your attention in the Question which stands in my name. I have no wish to embarrass Her Majesty's Government in their very difficult task of governing Ireland in bringing this matter forward. The circumstances to which my Question refers occurred during the Viceroyalty of the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) and not during the Administration of the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) or of the noble Earl (the Earl of Aberdeen). I have no desire of seeming to censure the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) for his conduct of 1504 the early stages of this dispute, for which I suppose the noble Earl must be held responsible, but I think that what is known of this matter your Lordships will agree that it is a state of affairs eminently unsatisfactory. The cost of extra police was resisted by the Limerick Corporation during the Viceroyalty of Earl Spencer; the question dragged on during that of Earl Carnarvon and Earl of Aberdeen, and is still unsettled unless the Government has decided to abandon their claim. A contumacious Corporation had during this long time flouted the power of the Executive and the authority of the Courts of law, because I believe this claim has received the sanction of the Queen's Bench in Ireland. The facts were these—At the Summer Assizes of 1882, at the Spring of 1883, and Summer of 1883, the Judges of Assize fiated three several presentments for the cost of extra police to be raised off the city of Limerick, and amounting in the whole to £1,450 3s. 3d. The Corporation of Limerick, on whom had developed the fiscal powers of the Grand Jury, were bound peremptorily to raise that amount, but refused to do so. Proceedings were instituted in the Court of Queen's Bench by the Attorney General to compel them to do so. On the 14th of May, 1884, the Queen's Bench made an absolute order for a mandamus commanding the Mayor and Corporation to raise and pay over the amount. The Corporation met and resolved—
That this Council declines to comply with the mandamus, inasmuch as the Council are of opinion that the tax is unjust and tyrannical, and if now imposed illegal.The return of the writ of mandamus was a copy of this resolution. At the Spring Assizes of 1884 the Judges fiated a further presentment for an additional sum of £466 4s., and on July 4, 1884, a second mandamus was obtained to compel payment of that amount. The Corporation, however, again refused and made a similar resolution and return. No further steps appeared to have been taken. The effect of this action on the part of the Limerick Corporation, and that no step had been taken to follow up the mandamus—which, I am afraid, was the object desired—had brought the Government into contempt in Ireland. There could be no greater misfortune in the administration of the affairs of a country that 1505 that a Local Authority should be able to set at defiance the legal power of the Crown and jurisprudence of a country. I suppose it is a just claim, and, therefore, machinery should exist to enforce it, otherwise the only thing which surprises one is that any locality in Ireland has paid this extra police tax. As regards the latter part of my Question, it is founded on a statement in the Irish intelligence of The Times to the effect that—The Limerick Corporation having been successful so far in their persistent refusal to pay the Government demands for a portion of the costs of extra police drafted into the city during the land agitation, adopted to-day a similar course of opposition with regard to the claim of the Governors of the Limerick District Lunatic Asylum. The Town Council for some years past have been petitioning the Lord Lieutenant for the time being for representation on the Asylum Board on the ground that large sums of money for the cost of the city patients are voted annually by the Corporation, and that the latter, through not having the power to appoint Governors, have no control over the expenditure of the institution. Acting on the statements put forward, the Mayor and his successors in office were appointed ex officio Governors, and some members of the Town Council were from time to time appointed Governors by the Viceroy. This, however, did not satisfy the Nationalist Members, who consider that the Corporation should be represented directly by members selected from the Town Council in virtue of their office, and as representing the city taxpayers. To-day it was proposed, and passed unanimously, that the Corporation should refuse to grant any more money towards the support of the asylum until the Lord Lieutenant granted the Town Council a representation on the Board of Governors.Under these circumstances, I should like to ask Her Majesty's Government to say on whom the burdens the Limerick Corporation refused to bear would fall in the event of the victory remaining with the Corporation? Will it fall upon the broad shoulders of the British taxpayer, which seem to me to be both unjust and undesirable? I should also like to ask what the Government propose to do in the future to compel the Corporation of Limerick to meet their liabilities. If such a state of things as the present is to be tolerated, it seems to me that Government could not be said to exist in Limerick, and would retain its title, conferred by the late Earl of Beaconsfield, as the worst and weakest Executive in the world.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN)said, he had paused before rising, because he thought that perhaps 1506 the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) would feel it his duty to reply to the noble Duke (the Duke of St. Albans). It was true that this was an ancient matter, the circumstances to which allusion was made having occurred between the years 1882 and 1884. The noble Duke had correctly stated what had taken place; but he asked what was the present position of matters, and what were the present powers of the Government with reference to the recovery of the tax for extra police, and which, undoubtedly, was still owing by the Corporation of Limerick? In reply, he (Earl Cadogan) might state that in December, 1884, the then Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant explained in the House of Commons that the only further legal procedure open to the Government was to apply to the Court of Queen's Bench for an order for the committal to prison of the defaulting members of the Limerick Corporation—an extreme proceeding that it was not then considered desirable to adopt. He (Earl Cadogan) was afraid that it was not more desirable now than it was then; but he might inform his noble Friend that the claim on the Town Council had not been formally relinquished by the Government; and that in the meantime the expenses of these extra police had been charged to the Constabulary Vote. The debt had not been increased for some time past, inasmuch as the proclamation under which the extra police were required had expired some 18 or 19 months ago. With reference to the second part of the Question, the refusal of the Corporation to present payment towards the district lunatic asylum, the facts were these—The Corporation had demanded on behalf of the ratepayers of Limerick a larger representation of the City of Limerick on the Board of Governors of the asylum than they now possessed, and they had adopted a resolution declining to present, the maintenance of the asylum unless the demand was complied with. The Government, however, felt that the Corporation had no ground for making their demand, as an analysis of the list of the Board of Governors of the asylum showed that the city ratepayers—as distinguished from the county ratepayers—were already amply—if not unduly—represented, having regard to the population and valuation of the city and county respectively. Should the Corporation 1507 persist in their refusal to make the presentment, there was an express statutory provision under which the Judge of Assize could make an order for the levying of the necessary rate, and which will have the force of a presentment. With regard to the apprehension of the noble Duke as to the money having been advanced out of the public finances, there had been no such advance. It is not a matter of "repayment of money advanced out of public finances," but entirely one of local finance; the old system of Treasury advances for the maintenance of asylums having been given up.
§ EARL SPENCERsaid, he thought it was his duty to make some observations on the question which had been put by his noble Friend (the Duke of St. Alban's), and the answer which had been given on the part of the Government by the noble Earl opposite the Lord Privy Seal (Earl Cadogan). It was quite true that tins unfortunate, and, he thought, disastrous incident occurred during the time that he (Earl Spencer) was Lord Lieutenant. He did not wish to trouble their Lordships by going over all the facts of the case. It was a very long and a very complicated history, and it would only cause weariness to their Lordships if he were to go through every stage of the proceedings. All he would say was this—that in consequence of the disturbed state of Limerick in 1882, when he arrived there he found that the Police Authorities in the city declared that they would not be able to fulfil the ordinary duties of the police without an extra force. There were two provisions under which this force could be provided under the Act of William IV. One of these provisions was that so many magistrates could petition the Lord Lieutenant for an extra force to be sent down; and the other provision was the 13th section, which said that the Lord Lieutenant, on the advice of the Privy Council, if he considered that the state of the town was bad and required extra police, should have power to send the extra force to the city, the moiety of the charge for such force falling on the city. It was his painful duty on that occasion to propose to the Privy Council, and on their advice to carry out, the Proclamation ordering a certain number of extra police for Limerick. From 1508 time to time that question was before him—indeed, hardly a month passed in which the Limerick police did not come before him. He was most anxious to come to an amicable arrangement with the Corporation on the matter; and at the earliest moment possible he took what steps he could to diminish the force. He diminished it first by 20 men, and then again by so many more, until, at last, the moiety the Corporation had to pay was for 10 men. Under another section of the Police Acts power was given to the Inspector General to send from time to time from one I county to another, or from a county to a city in Ireland, extra police if it was found to be necessary. His Predecessor in the Viceroyalty had found it necessary to increase the force from time to time. When they found that the Corporation of Limerick were unwilling to pay this tax, it became a matter of grave consideration what should be done. He quite recognized the importance of getting Acts of this sort carried out, and of seeing the authority of the Government obeyed, and not set at defiance. The Irish Government proceeded in the ordinary way for obtaining payments of this kind. They applied to the Court of Queen's Bench, through the Crown Law Officers; and the Court, after going into the question, issued a mandamus. They had hoped that the result of these proceedings would have been that the Corporation would have paid an imperative tax. There was no question before the Court as to the legality of it. It was decided to be legal; and he had no doubt, personally, that the necessity was a great one for sending the extra force. Her Majesty's Government, seeing that the Corporation had refused to obey the mandamus of the Court of Queen's Bench, had to consider what should be done. His noble Friend opposite (Earl Cadogan) stated only part of the decision of the then Government. He stated that the ordinary course in the the circumstances was to apply to have the mandamus made absolute; but the only way of doing that, according to the advice of their Legal Advisers, was to attach the persons of the Council who took part in these proceedings—in other words, to take steps for the arrest of the Mayor and Corporation of Limerick. That would have been a very serious and grave act. Although he would not say 1509 that on certain occasions it might not have to be done; it was a step which would have created immense excitement, and it would not have brought the Government one whit nearer to obtaining the money owing by the Corporation. The matter was referred by him to the Cabinet in London; and the decision of the Cabinet was that, instead of proceeding by attachment against the persons of the Corporation, they should proceed by way of legislation, and obtain powers for the Government in such cases to levy the tax themselves. That was announced by the Chief Secretary (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) in the House of Commons, and it was stated that the Government would introduce a Bill on the subject after Whitsuntide. As their Lordships knew, the Government came to an end; but he maintained that, so far as the Government of which he had the honour to be the head in Ireland was concerned, they were not to be taxed with having allowed the matter to lapse; that they took every step they could at the time short of putting the whole Corporation in prison; and that they could not have acted in a different way to what they did. Then the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Carnarvon) succeeded to the Viceroyalty in Ireland, and received a deputation from Limerick; and it was understood in Ireland that the noble Earl had practically dropped the whole case, and given up the claim against the town and Corporation.
§ THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Earl CADOGAN). interposing, said, what the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) did was to suggest a compromise; he did not think Lord Carnarvon relinquished the claim.
§ EARL SPENCERsaid, he did not know what the compromise was—they could only judge from what they saw in the newspapers—but it was understood at the time that they had dropped the claim.
§ EARL CADOGANsaid, he only wished it to be understood that the noble Earl (the Earl of Carnarvon) did not relinquish the claim.
§ EARL SPENCERsaid, he could only say that when the Liberal Government returned to Office it was understood—and he made inquiry about it—that the claim had been practically relinquished; and during the few months last summer when the Government remained in Office 1510 the question was never even brought up for disposal. He should like to say a word on the subject of the lunatic asylums. He disapproved of the manner in which the managers and governors of lunatic asylums were appointed in Ireland. It was one of the things that must one day or other be dealt with. Those governors were nominated by the Lord Lieutenant; and there was considerable dissatisfaction that the ratepayers, who had to pay towards their maintenance, had no voice on the governing body. He had himself had no little difficulty on this subject; because, while the Lord Lieutenant might be very anxious to carry out the wishes of any Corporation or other local body concerned in a lunatic asylum, it was impossible for the Government and the Viceroy to divest himself of responsibility for an appointment. It would be well, therefore, to alter the law in that regard. While speaking of these matters, he could not help referring to a case which had arisen in the Courts of Law in Dublin. A learned Judge in this country inherited property in Tipperary, of which a lease had been granted by his predecessor in title to the Local Government Board, the premises to be used for a lunatic asylum. The learned Judge two years ago failed to obtain any rent, and he accordingly applied to the Local Government Board, who refused to pay. Thereupon he applied to the Courts in Dublin to mark judgment against the Local Government Board. He (Earl Spencer) believed they did mark judgment; and the Local Government Board would, he presumed, have to pay the money out of the sum voted to them by Parliament. Now, that was a different case to the other, because here the Local Government Board had power to levy, although he did not say it was a power which it was desirable to enforce; but he was curious to know what the Government proposed to do with regard to it. He imagined that the guardians refused to levy the rate, and that in future it would be paid by the taxpayers, of the United Kingdom.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he was quite certain that the noble Earl (Earl Spencer) who had just sat down was fully justified in strengthening the police force of Limerick, and he was certain that any measure he could have pro- 1511 posed to take to collect the rate would have been supported by Parliament and the country. But what he wished to submit to their Lordships was this—that it was of very little public interest whether it happened under this or that Viceroy—this or that Government. What was important was, what was the position of the case now, and in what way did it reflect upon Parliament? What was the position? A rate had been levied upon the town of Limerick, and the Mayor and Town Council had undertaken not to pay it. The noble Earl said that the Government of which he was then a Member did not think it right to proceed to arrest the Mayor of Limerick, and the following Government took the same course; but how stood the case? What means were there of collecting the rate? They had just been told there were none except by attaching the Mayor and Corporation of Limerick, or some of them; and what he had to ask was whether the Mayor of Limerick was superior to the law of the country? If that was so—and it was apparently recognized both by the late and present Government—then he (the Earl of Camperdown) said that the position was a very serious one indeed. But let him leave that part of the question, and refer to the second Question brought forward by the noble Duke. It appeared that the Town Council had been petitioning the Lord Lieutenant for representation on the Asylums Board, on the ground that large sums of money were voted annually for the city patients by the Corporation. The Lord Lieutenant appointed the Mayor and his successor in office as town governors; but that did not satisfy the Nationalists, and on the 3rd February they passed a resolution that the Corporation refused to grant any more money towards the support of the asylum until the Lord Lieutenant granted the Town Council adequate representation on the board. The Town Council took up that position, not because they did not obtain representation, but because they did not obtain it in the precise manner in which they wanted to have it. He (the Earl of Camperdown) questioned whether it would have been legal for the Lord Lieutenant to have granted what they wished. If it was true that, under the circumstances, the Mayor and Corporation had refused the contribution for which the town was liable; and if, as 1512 they were told, the only means of onforcing the rate was by issuing a mandamus which the Corporation declined to obey, he would ask their Lordships if Parliament and the Government were going to allow the Mayor and Corporation of Limerick to defy the law? So far as he saw, it was without sufficient reason, for they did not contend that they had not obtained what they asked, but that they had not obtained it in the way they asked for it.
§ LORD FITZGERALDsaid, that the whole debt amounted to £1,800, and the question was whether the Corporation of Limerick should be permitted to repudiate legal obligations and defy the law. He did not propose to enter into the policy of the present system of imposing a tax for extra police in Ireland, although he had some doubts as to whether that policy was sound. At all events, it was the law, and the law ought to be obeyed, or, if it was erroneous, altered. In this case the Town Council of Limerick bad refused to levy a rate to pay the demand made upon them for extra police employed during a period of alleged disturbance. The noble Earl (Earl Spencer) who had then been Viceroy had made every inquiry as to whether any injustice had been done, and on one occasion had invited the Corporation of Limerick to meet and confer with him, in order that he might see whether he could reduce the amount in any manner consistent with the law. The Town Council had put forward a somewhat contemptuous refusal, and the Government of the day could do nothing but proceed against them. Once that had been done, it ought to have been carried on to the end. A mandamus had been obtained from the Court of Queen's Bench, nobody appearing on behalf of the Town Council to show cause against it. The Town Council refused to comply with the mandamus on the ground, as stated in a resolution, that the tax was unjust and had been illegally imposed. To put such a document as this resolution upon the file was undoubtedly a great contempt of the Court of Queen's Bench, and the one answer to it should have been an attachment for contempt. He could understand, however, that the Government of the day had been very unwilling to single out any particular person. The only other remedy was to proceed by legislation, and to allow the 1513 Government to make the rate themselves, and then send it down to the Local Authority to be collected. As he had said before, he had some doubt as to the soundness of the policy of the present law in regard to this question; but if the law was unwise or unjust, let it be altered, but they must have no paltering with the law, and they should allow neither repudiation or contempt of the law. In his opinion, legislation such as he had suggested was the only true method of providing against similar difficulties in the future.