§ LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALA,in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether it would not be desirable to convene a Royal Commission to consider the present condition of the armaments and munitions of war in the United Kingdom and the Colonies, and what additions to them are necessary to meet any emergency or hostile combination? said, that taking into consideration the smallness of their Military Force, and the extent of the Empire it was called on to defend, it was imperative that they should be supplied with the very best weapon. Therefore, he had been impressed for a considerable time with the feeling that the proposal which he now presented for the consideration of their 18 Lordships and of Her Majesty's Government was necessary, in order to ascertain if there were deficiencies in our military armaments and munitions of war; and, if so, that they might be brought to notice and remedied. There had been a feeling that our military stores had been allowed during the last six years to fall below a sound level. First among present demands stood the Artillery. The increased activity in the Navy, stimulated by the national demand, would require increased activity in the gun factories to supply the artillery for the new ships, and especially to supply the carriages for which heavy guns had too often had to wait. The Colonial ports and coaling stations, in addition to our home coast defences, made a heavy demand for guns of position. The newly-awakened consciousness of national weakness on our coasts would lead to much self-help; but in the matter of weapons the State must assist. No one who had observed the working in battery of heavy muzzle-loading guns could hesitate to demand breech-loaders; and the above considerations led to the conclusion that it would be better to enlarge our Government manufactories for the construction of guns and gun carriages, and our small-arm and gunpowder factories for fabricating materials on which we could thoroughly rely, than to be greatly dependent on external aid; and, also, for our Field Artillery, we must correct the error committed some 15 or 16 years ago in rejecting breech-loaders. The new field gun, which had been so highly approved, had to be supplied to a large part of the Artillery Forces. He understood, also, that a new rifle had been approved after the severest tests. Whether that weapon was to be adopted into the Service, or whether we should retain the Martini-Henry, a considerable strain must be put on our small-arm manufactories to maintain the supply for our Regular Army, and for the Deserve and Auxiliary Forces. It might be said that the requirements of the arsenals and manufactories could be well represented by the Departmental officers, who must know better than anyone else their own wants. In submitting those observations he (Lord Napier) was very far from implying any want of efficiency in the officers at the head of the Ordnance Department. On the contrary, 19 he was impressed with the great ability of these officers, more especially of the Director General, General Alderson; but his duties were enormous, and it was difficult for a Departmental officer to initiate any considerable increase to his establishment. He could not move independently, being only able to act to the extent of what was supplied him. If he made recommendations he was apt to be regarded as overrating the wants of his particular Department. His opinions would be listened to with more attention if they were confirmed by the voice of an impartial Commission. He did not think it convenient to bring the subject forward when there appeared a prospect of a disturbance of the peaceful relations between Great Britain and some other countries. It was not at such a time that we should begin to make new weapons and new machinery; it was the time to turn to account the best weapons we possessed. But now, when there appeared no such strain or severe tension, it seemed the right and fitting time to put our house in order, and to proceed calmly and deliberately to correct any deficiencies rather than to wait for a time of danger, and then to hurry into contracts and preparations, which were more costly than in ordinary times, and were too often not completed in time for the occasion. The noble and gallant Lord concluded by asking the Question of which he had given Notice.
§ THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, that he had a Motion down on the Paper for to-morrow with respect to the new arm; but probably it would be convenient if he were, on this occasion, allowed to make a few remarks on the subject which his noble and gallant Friend had brought before them. His noble and gallant Friend had done good service in calling attention to our want of stores and efficient guns, and he had not done so without ample grounds. His noble and gallant Friend recommended a Commission; but much good could hardly come of that, because, for many years past, there had been a perpetual series of Committees and Commissions. There was hardly a room in the War Office in which a War Office Commission had not sat at some time or other, and nothing came of them all. Another Commission would only lead to the same result. It seemed to him that Commissions served only as a screen to 20 enable a Government not to do what they ought to do, and to shield those who ought to have done their duty without necessitating an inquiry as to why they did not. He would wish to have a Return of our stores and guns. The Government might not wish to give such a Return; but they might be sure that foreign nations knew the state of our stores and guns very well. None knew better than his noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for War (Viscount Bury) the deficiency of our supply of guns, and it was also notorious that our stock of small arms was very far from what it ought to be; and it was essential for the proper defence of the country that we should be well supported with guns, both large and small. The Militia and Volunteers were shortly to be armed with the Martini-Henry; and, when that was done, he would like to know how many were in store? He believed the amount would be very small; at any rate, not approaching what a nation like ours ought to have. It should be remembered that in the French War arms were taken by hundreds and thousands at a time. He believed that about 3,000 a-week was all we could turn out. It was notorious that the 40-pounder was now inferior to the 12-pounder and the 16-pounder, and steps ought to be taken to improve it. He pointed out last year that our present rifle at 2,000 yards made excellent practice, and it would be better to try and improve it than to have an entirely new weapon which would necessitate a break of gauge. The fact was, each Party as it came into Office tried to cut down expenditure, in order to make a good show with the Budget That was the real reason why the armaments of the country were in their present condition. He should like to ask what course the Government intended to take with reference to the new arm?
LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he hoped that, if the Commission was appointed, it would be an independent body. Had those who were responsible for those matters spoken out in the way they ought to have done, our Army would not now be in the position in which it was. It was absolutely necessary, if information was to be sought, that it should be from those who were hard-working soldiers, whose merits were too often overlooked, and not from 21 those soldier politicians who had constantly held Staff appointments, and who had never for an hour commanded a regiment. It was absolutely necessary that something was done, for the Army had not been in the state in which it ought to have been as regarded its armament, and various other important particulars, for upwards of 25 years.
§ THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Viscount BURY)said, that no one could bring this subject forward with greater force than the noble and gallant Lord who introduced it (Lord Napier of Magdala). The noble Earl who followed him (the Earl of Wemyss) spoke of the re-armament of the Army with a particular rifle; and, for the sake of clearness, he (Viscount Bury) would dispose of that question first, and then address himself to the remarks of the noble and gallant Field Marshal. The noble Earl was himself a Member of the Committee which sat to consider the subject of a change of rifle for the Army. That Committee reported mainly and generally in favour of an improved arm. The matter, when the late Government left Office, appeared ripe for settlement; but it had not been settled. It, therefore, devolved upon the present Government to decide what should be done. His right hon. Friend at the head of the War Office could not take any decision of his Predecessors, but felt it his duty to examine the matter for himself; and, although there was a considerable consensus of opinion among military experts as to the advantage of having an improved weapon for the rank and file of the Army, that question had not yet been decided upon. The noble Lord on his right (Lord Ellenborough) had stated that the evidence of working soldiers should be taken on this matter. He (Viscount Bury) was quite in accord with the noble Lord on that point; and he might say that it was the very course which his right hon. Friend at the head of the War Office was about to adopt. The Papers and evidence with regard to this change of rifle had been to-day given into the hands of a small Committee, over which an officer well known to their Lordships' House would preside, Colonel Philip Smith. A more practical soldier than Colonel Smith could not be found. With him would be associated a couple more practical soldiers. 22 He did not, of course, know what that Committee would decide; but, whatever it was, it would only be in the way of advice to the head of the War Office, who, after the Committee had reported, would form his own judgment upon the subject. That was the state of the case with regard to the re-armament of the troops with the new breech-loading rifle. He would now come to the somewhat larger question raised by the noble and gallant Field Marshal. The condition of the armaments and munitions of war had already occupied the serious attention of the Government. They found that their Predecessors had come to recognize the necessity for improved guns, and for a remedy in the matter of the deficiency of stores. He (Viscount Bury) was not there to say that the armaments were or were not in a satisfactory state; but he merely said that the matter had occupied the serious attention of the Government; that something had already been done in the time of their Predecessors; that more was now being done by the present Government; and that they hoped to arrive at a satisfactory conclusion. He should like to give a general statement as to what had occurred. The following was the provision that was being made during the year on account of the Naval and Submarine Mining Services. The normal Vote amounted to £2,227,000, and the Vote of Credit to £2,360,000—making an available sum of £4,587,000. Of that, £2,227,000 was due to the normal Vote and £2,360,000 to the Vote of Credit. Of the latter sum, there was due to Egypt £800,000; this left £1,560,000; and there was due to the Navy £560,000, which left £1,000,000 available. There were sundry schemes for the supply and increase of armaments, which were provided for out of that £1,000,000 to the amount of £465,000, and that left of the Vote of Credit and the ordinary Estimates together about £500,000. That £500,000 would be allocated as follows:—Expended on rifles, which would be recovered on repayments, £100,000; small arms ammunition beyond previous programme, £100,000; acceleration of guns for land and sea services, £120,000; additional torpedoes for Navy and plant for increased manufacture, £85,000, which was far in advance of former years; making good loss on appropria- 23 tions in aid, £50,000; and these items, with £45,000 for margin, account for the £500,000. It would be seen that very considerable advance had been made this year in the provision for stores, for ammunition, and for guns. He did not say that we were in a satisfactory position; but he did say that we were progressing towards that position. His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War had by no means lost sight of the importance of the subject, which had been before him over since he entered upon his Office. This appropriation of £500,000 for increased armaments would leave to be provided next year the sum of £250,000 for a further reserve of stores, and that would not exhaust the demands upon the Treasury, for there would probably be in future years a permanent addition of £150,000 on account of these extra stores. As to Field Artillery, he was not able to quote from the Report he had in his hand, because it had not yet been laid on the Table; but of Field Artillery we had a very considerable provision, and we had enough to send a considerable number of guns to India if they were required. As to 40-pounder guns, there was a 40-pounder which was new and which was a breech-loader—it was a gun of very great power and accuracy—and of that we had a considerable store. It was not at all a contemptible arm. With regard to mountain guns, we had seven batteries—that was, 42 new guns this year; and there was the material for turning them out at a considerable rate. A considerable addition had been made to the plant, and the Secretary of State for War was inclined to add still further to that arm. We were very fairly off for siege guns. As to the reserve of small arms, it was true that with the arming of the Volunteers and the Militia with the Martini-Henry rifle, the reserve of small arms had fallen below what it ought to be. At present we were turning out about 3,000 a-week. Alterations were being made in the mode of working, which would bring the turn-out to about 4,000 a-week. This was the normal position; but by night shifts and other arrangements we could turn out double the number. We should practically have about 20,000 of these Martini-Henrys in store, and we should go on manufacturing them as rapidly as we could. He 24 thought his noble Friends might dismiss from their minds that they would be caught napping in this respect. Nothing had been decided as to the arming of the Army with a new gun; and, therefore, the production of the Martini-Henry would go on with all possible speed. The idea of appointing a Royal Commission did not commend itself to the Secretary of State. He was engaged almost day and night in investigating the condition of affairs for himself; and he felt that while he was doing that the appointment of a Commission could hardly have a satisfactory result. If he afterwards found it necessary to seek the assistance of a Commission, he would be most happy to do so. But at present he hoped that a Motion for a Commission would not be pressed.
§ LORD WAVENEYsaid, he had no doubt as to whether the Martini-Henry rifle was an arm adequate for the defence of the Empire. If they ought to have a store of 800,000 stand of arms, at the rate they were mating them—4,000 a-week—it would take four years to have that quantity ready. He wished to warn the Government against allowing alterations and improvements to bring about delays.
§ LORD NAPIER OF MAGDALAsaid, he should like to know how many field guns could be sent to India, and whether they were of the latest breech-loading pattern? He would also observe that though the sum reserved for heavy guns no doubt required an effort, and was so far satisfactory, it would not go very far to meet the demand for the foreign ports and coaling stations. It was satisfactory to know that the Secretary of State for War had given his serious attention to the subject; and, therefore, he would not press the Motion for a Royal Commission.
§ VISCOUNT BURY,in reply, said, there were 271 muzzle-loading guns of 16 lbs.