QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. (Hansard, 17 November 1884)

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, 1815 Whether he had any recent information to lay on the Table of the House respecting the fulfilment by the Government of Turkey of those provisions of the Treaty of Berlin which were directed to secure the good administration of the European Provinces of the Turkish Empire; and, whether, in particular, Her Majesty's Government had any information as to alleged outrages by the Turkish authorities on the people of Macedonia? He was very sorry to have to call the attention of the House, for a few moments, to a very painful subject. He hoped their Lordships would not think that he was in too much haste, or eager to ask the House to plunge again into their old friend the Eastern Question. They had enough on their hands at present in Colonial and foreign affairs and in other directions. But there were certain duties incumbent upon them as a nation and as Members of both Houses of Parliament in respect to obligations into which this country had entered. Whatever had been the differences of opinion which had existed in their Lordships' House as to the circumstances which led up to the Treaty of Berlin, he had been disposed to rest on that Treaty, which he held to be not an unsatisfactory settlement of a very difficult question. At all events, the Treaty supplied certain securities, or professed to do so, for the good government of the European Provinces of Turkey, and also of the Asiatic Provinces. He had always been of opinion that, irrespective of that Treaty altogether, this country and the other nations of Europe had heavy obligations with regard to the people of those Provinces. The Treaty of Berlin put its seal on those obligations, and by a considerable number of Articles it provided, or professed to provide, certain securities for the people of the Provinces. The safety of Bulgaria was provided for by the creation of an autonomous State, while Eastern Roumelia had an administrative autonomy and a Christian Governor General given to it. Then, with respect to the Asiatic Provinces, the provisions were very specific; and he believed that repeated remonstrances had been addressed by Lord Dufferin to the Sultan as to the non-fulfilment of those parts of the Treaty relating to the country inhabited by the Armenians. With regard to the whole of the Provinces in the one matter of 1816 religion, the Treaty professed to secure complete religious toleration. But he now came to a clause which was less satisfactory. Eastern Roumelia, Roumania, Servia, and other places had been cut off, and there remained that Western portion of European Turkey, which comprised Macedonia and certain other portions of the country. Article 23 provided that a Constitution should be given to those countries analogous to that given to the Island of Crete. He had not heard anything until lately of the grievous abuses complained of with regard to Armenia and the Asiatic Provinces of Turkey. Many of their Lordships must have been horrified by statements which had appeared in an evening paper on this subject. He should not have brought those statements to the notice of their Lordships had they been anonymous; but they were avowedly the production of a very distinguished man whose name was known in literature all over the world—M. Emile Laveleye. Things really seemed to be almost as bad in the Turkish Provinces of Macedonia as they were before the last Russian War, when the horrors going on in Bulgaria roused the indignation of this country and the world. It appeared that, during the month of July, in one district of Macedonia alone there were 45 murders committed by Turks, and in other parts there were 60 murders. M. Emile Laveleye had given names of districts, names of victims, and names of murderers, and had stated that in some cases the victims had had their noses and ears cut off, the skin of their arms torn away, their eyes pecked out, and had then been cut to pieces. There were nine instances of the most horrible and atrocious murders given by M. Laveleye in the paper to which he had referred—The Pall Mall Gazette. What he wanted to know was, whether this country had Consuls in the district, and whether they had reported to the Foreign Office anything with regard to these alleged atrocities? The Province was near to Greece and to this country, and our sympathy must be more excited than if those outrages were committed in the Asiatic Provinces of Turkey. He hoped the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs would be able to assure their Lordships that the eyes of the Government were fixed upon the matter, and that they would take such steps as 1817 were necessary to put an end to the condition of things now existing. If these atrocities continued, the Government would have another Eastern Question on their hands, which would be intolerable to the people of this country and to the other European Powers. The Turkish Government rested solely on the guarantee of the European Powers; and it would be high time to put an end to that Government and make the whole of the Provinces autonomous if atrocities were not put down.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
My Lords, I quite agree with the policy laid down by the noble Duke with regard to the Treaty of Berlin. There may be things in that Treaty which may be approved or disapproved, yet it is a great Treaty, agreed in by all Europe; and we have acted as much as possible, and shown we have a wish to act, consistently with the provisions of that Treaty. We have been successful with regard to some of the provisions; but we have been quite unsuccessful as to others. I am quite certain that your Lordships will feel that we could not have had a better Representative for the purpose than Lord Dufferin. He had instructions, which will be continued to his successor, to press, in the manner the most likely to attain the end, for the faithful carrying out of the provisions of the Treaty of Berlin. With regard to the Question of the noble Duke, this country has Consuls in European Turkey, and Reports have been received from them, and I do not think there will be any objection to lay them before your Lordships. With regard to the particular atrocities in Macedonia to which the noble Duke has referred, they are not fully confirmed by the Consuls. On the contrary, Macedonia was reported to be in a better condition than it has been for some time, owing to the present Governor, though the borders of Bulgaria and Roumelia are disturbed. Her Majesty's Government wished to do everything in their power, and they desire that the other Powers will act in concert with them—to carry out all the obligations imposed upon them. I am also bound to state that only five minutes before entering the House I received a communication from the Turkish Ambassador, repudiating very warmly the attacks made upon the Turkish Government who, he said, were extremely de 1818 sirous to carry out the reforms stipulated by the Treaty.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
My Lords, I have no doubt the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs is taking all the measures that can be taken for executing the Treaty of Berlin and securing the happiness of these Provinces. I entirely concur with him that probably no one could have been chosen better fitted and more anxious to see the Treaty carried out than Lord Dufferin; and I think we may rest perfectly assured that, so far as diplomatic action could have the effect of securing the good government of these Provinces, Lord Dufferin would take every measure possible. I rose mainly to point out to the noble Duke that the case of Eastern Roumelia and the case of Macedonia are not so different, in the eyes of the Treaty of Berlin, as he seems to think. For both provision is made for a certain amount of autonomous government. Eastern Roumelia, no doubt the most elaborate, was first taken in hand; an International Commission was issued; and I think Sir H. Drummond Wolff was the Representative of this country; and the provisions that were drawn up with regard to Eastern Roumelia have proved eminently successful. I do not know so much of the provisions that were drawn up for the government of Macedonia; they were drawn up after I left Office; but the noble Earl opposite sent out as the Representative of this country the noble Lord who is now the very able Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. I believe that every precaution was taken to provide for Macedonia an adequate and stable government. What are the causes which prevented the same success following in Macedonia as in Eastern Roumelia? I do not know. Perhaps the country is more mountainous, more difficult to manage, and the bulk of it further from the centre. There is less revenue, perhaps, for carrying out the government. There are one or two remarks I would make upon the horrible details which the noble Duke has brought before us. I think the experience of everybody who has looked into these matters is that, with the lamentable substratum of truth, there is almost in the very horror of these recitals something which leads to exaggeration; and unless these recitals are confirmed by 1819 the official authorities at the Foreign Office I should hesitate to give full credit to them in all their details. The other remark I would make is that I am afraid Macedonia is not the only place in the world over which we have influence where terrible cruelties are inflicted. There is, for instance, the Empire of Burmah, which lies on our Indian Frontier, and, as it were, in the hollow of our hand, which by a letter from Whitehall could be brought into order at any moment, and in which there is constant perpetration of horrors on a scale and characterized by an atrocity before which anything which can be related with regard to Macedonia would pale. We cannot accept the doctrine that we are responsible for all these things, because by certain extreme measures it might be possible to prevent them. I would not do or say anything to weaken the appeal of the noble Duke to the Foreign Office, that they would do their utmost to prevent these cruelties and atrocities, and to promote the good government of Macedonia; but I cannot accept the doctrine, which in one sentence the noble Duke seemed to lay down, that we are to shrink from no political measures by which the object he has in view would be attained.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL
said, that the noble Marquess could not have understood the distinction he made as between Eastern Roumelia and Macedonia. The noble Marquess could not have remembered the exact terms of the Treaty of Berlin, otherwise he would not have said that the same provision applied to both. There was this enormous difference between them. As regards Eastern Roumelia, there was an administrative autonomy and a Christian Governor General. That made the whole difference between it and Macedonia, where there was no such provision. As regarded horrors all round the world, he repudiated the doctrine that they were the same to us as those in Macedonia. His view was that there was no parallel between the horrors of Burmah and those of Macedonia, because we had not guaranteed the safety of the Burmese Government, and were not responsible for its existence.