§ Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
THE EARL OF DALHOUSIE, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, called attention to the fact that it was a much milder measure than the Bill which passed through their Lordships' House last year; many provisions of that Bill were omitted, and many additional safeguards introduced. It differed also in form. The present Bill was divided into three parts—the first relating to the suppression of prostitution, the second to the suppression of brothels, while the third contained definitions and other miscellaneous matter. With regard to the first part, some of 1454 the clauses were in the same form as last year; others had been modified. The Government, in framing the measure, had endeavoured not to go beyond public opinion, and many persons, on, that account, might consider the Bill inadequate; but it had been their object to keep their efforts within such limits as would be approved by public opinion as represented by 12 jurymen. Their Lordships would judge how far the efforts of the Government had been successful; at the same time, they would admit that the necessity for some measure was beyond all doubt—a fact which was affirmed last year in that House by reading the Bill a second time without a Division. In other countries female chastity was protected up to the age of 21; in this country it was not, and it was admitted that juvenile prostitution was largely on the increase, especially in London. There was a good deal of evidence to show that the Contagious Diseases Acts had worked beneficially in some respects. Since the beginning of the year 22 Memorials and Resolutions had been presented bearing testimony to the beneficial working of those Acts in reducing disease and juvenile prostitution. Those Memorials appeared to be spontaneous, and fairly to represent the state of opinion in the districts from which they came; and the second portion of the Bill was founded, in some degree, on the Report of a Select Committee of the House of Commons, which expressed the opinion that the Contagious Diseases Acts had diminished prostitution and suppressed juvenile prostitution in the subjected districts, and which recommended that additional and more absolute powers should be given to the police. Of course, these recommendations were not sufficient to justify a Bill of this kind if it was wrong; but a recommendation of a Select Committee of that kind raised some presumption in its favour. In I their Lordships' Committee evidence had been given that juvenile prostitution had been carried on chiefly in low-class brothels, and that it was impossible to deal with the question unless additional powers were given for dealing with these brothels. The powers given to householders by the Act of George II. upon the subject were very seldom used, because of the opprobrium which their exercise brought on those who made use of them. This Bill created no new offence 1455 whatever. Under the law as it now stood, keeping a brothel was an offence punishable by fine and imprisonment; it was now proposed to make it an offence liable to summary proceedings. The 12th clause provided for the determination of tenancies by the landlord in the case of the premises being used as a brothel. In the 13th clause of the Bill there was an error in the wording; the words "there is reasonable cause to suspect" should be left out. Those words had been cut out last year as being too drastic. In dealing with this question, Her Majesty's Government knew that it was impossible to deal with vice of any kind by legislation in the present state of society and of human nature, and this Bill was not intended to be a measure for the suppression of vice. All they could do was to compel brothel-keepers to carry on their business so that, on the one hand, they should not be an annoyance to their respectable neighbours, nor, on the other, hold out any open temptation to either sex. For this reason the Government proposed, by the 13th clause, to make the keeping of such a house an offence which should be dealt with summarily. It was not intended that the police should attempt to put down all brothels forthwith. The clause empowered a Justice of the Peace to issue a search warrant on the information by oath of any Superintendent or Inspector of Police. In attempting to deal with these houses in such a manner, they had not been without the results of experience in the matter. Acts of Parliament had been passed dealing with the subject, more especially for the towns of Leamington and Glasgow. Those Acts had worked satisfactorily; and with regard to the proposal of the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown) to refer the measure to a Select Committee, he trusted that their Lordships would not agree to it. He did not pretend that the Bill as it stood was a perfect measure; in fact, one part of it the Government intended to amend. The whole subject was a very difficult one; and it was not so much a question of principle as of degree. He would ask their Lordships not to refer the Bill to a Select Committee on three grounds. In the first place, the Bill did not deal with any new question at all, but with one which had been before their Lordships last year, and had been discussed at 1456 very great length. Secondly, the subject-matter with which it dealt had been already investigated by two Select Committees, and he did not think that any fresh evidence would be brought out. If the Bill did require any amendment, he did not see why that should not be done in its passage through their Lordships' House. A third reason was the delay which would thus be caused; a similar measure had been lost last year in the House of Commons through the lateness of the time at which it was introduced into that House. The Bill was one in which a large number of persons were deeply interested; and he hoped that it would not be delayed by being sent to a Select Committee.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Earl of Dalhousie.)
THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that, although the measure before them was not so severe as that of last year, it was so extremely faulty in construction that it was absolutely impossible to amend it in Committee of the Whole House. Nothing could be more unjustifiable than to pass a Bill of that character, simply because the noble Earl appeared to think that any Bill was better than no Bill at all. The first two clauses of the Act were much the same as passed last year; but in the 3rd clause there was a considerable enlargement, because, while the present law applied to women under age, this clause applied to women of any age. The 4th clause was simply the law as at present existing. It was identical with the 3rd section of 38 & 39 Vict., c. 94. He thought that if that enactment should be repealed, it would be most desirable to provide adequate punishment for the attempt to commit the felony. While making an outrage on a child under 12 years of age a felony, it left the attempt still only a misdemeanour entailing a really inadequate punishment. This was all the more extraordinary, since in the next clause they had met the attempt and the actual crime with the same punishment. Although the crime so dealt with was only a misdemeanour, there would be nothing novel in making it a felony to attempt to commit a felony, as this had been done in several instances. Clause 7 extended the protection at present given in the case of girls under 1457 16 abducted for any purpose to girls of 18 abducted for an immoral purpose. He could not see why, supposing that extension was adhered to, an unmarried girl of that age should be the only one who was protected. Why should not a married servant girl, for instance, be as much protected as an unmarried one? Clause 8 extended the power of the Metropolitan Police by enabling them to arrest any woman who importuned persons in the street, whether she annoyed the passengers or not. No doubt something should be done to rescue the streets from their present shameful condition; but that Bill would put an enormous power in the hands of the police. He wished to speak of that force with every possible respect. It was an admirable body, which, as a whole, did its duty efficiently, humanely, and well. But at the same times it was a large army of more than 10,000, and in such a host there must be some men of indifferent character; and their Lordships should be careful not to place in their hands an engine of extortion upon those unhappy girls. The Bill said that the Court, in the case of any girl under 16 so offending, might, if she was under no guardianship, send her to a certified home. Surely any girl under 16 who was found to have so acted should be sent to a certified home—if there was such a thing—whether she was under the power of any guardian or not. Then he came to the question of the homes to which they were to be sent. There were no such places in existence; but in Clause 9 of the Bill there was a provision for constituting them. One of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State might, subject to certain conditions, grant to any person, or to two or more persons jointly, a certificate authorizing them to keep a home, he supposed, for the reception of those outcasts; but there was no provision made for any inspection of those homes, or with regard to their management. What the girls were to do when incarcerated was not stated. Above all, the Bill gave what the people of this country strongly objected to—namely, power to private persons to become gaolers. Every one of those girls would be reluctant prisoners. Moreover, there was no provision for making the parents of those children contribute to their support, thus holding out a premium to such parents to send 1458 their children into the streets. If, again, the police did their duty under that section, the number of those waifs and strays whom they would have to arrest would be counted by the thousand; for it was estimated that at present in the Metropolis there were over 80,000 of those wretched females, a large proportion of them being children. He now came to the part of the Bill relating to brothels. After their Lordships had decided last year, upon full consideration, by a majority of 28, that it was inexpedient to overload the Bill with provisions respecting such houses, he was surprised to find those provisions—or provisions very nearly to the same effect —again introduced into the present Bill. The noble Earl said that the object of Clause 11 was to give summary jurisdiction to magistrates over persons who kept brothels, instead of dealing with them by indictment, and to inflict imprisonment without the option of a line; but on conviction any such person was made liable for the first offence to any penalty not exceeding £20, or, in the discretion of the Court, to imprisonment for any term not exceeding three months, with or without hard labour. Was there any public demand for fresh legislation on that subject? Under the present state of the law, to keep a disorderly house of that character was a misdemeanour at Common Law, because it was a nuisance; and there existed no difficulty whatever in putting a stop to those nuisances and getting those houses suppressed whenever the inhabitants of the neighbourhood desired it. Therefore that attempt to do more in the matter seemed to him Quixotic. Section 13, giving power to a constable to obtain a search warrant over any householder's premises seemed to him a very extraordinary provision. To keep a disorderly house was, as he had said, a misdemeanour at Common Law, because it was a nuisance; and yet it was supposed that to discover that nuisance it was necessary to examine and pry all over the house. There was no necessity for anything of the kind; nothing was more easy than to get the evidence of the neighbours, or to place a constable near the door to notice those who came and went. Nothing more objectionable than to grant a search warrant to enter everybody's house and try to discover what was going on there 1459 could well be conceived. Nor was the remedy of an action, as suggested by the noble Earl, in the event of a house; when searched turning out not to be of the character that had been supposed, a very certain or satisfactory one. He very much doubted whether any such action would lie, unless express malice could be proved. These were among the chief reasons why he thought the Bill could not be properly amended in Committee of the Whole House. He yielded to no Member of their Lordships House, or to anyone out of it, in his anxiety to remedy, and, if possible, to suppress the terrible evils which the evidence before their Lordships' Committee had disclosed; and, so far as this Bill proceeded in that direction, it had his humble and most hearty support. It was with, the object of rendering the Bill more efficient for that purpose, to make it a reality and not a sham, and also to get rid of provisions which now overloaded it, and which might lead to its shipwreck "elsewhere," that he ventured to ask their Lordships to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. He felt bound to add, however, that in his judgment it was not by penal legislation of this kind, however severe, or however drastic, that their Lordships would remedy those terrible evils which had been found to exist. It was rather by such measures as those which had been so nobly inaugurated by the noble Marquess who sat below him (the Marquess of Salisbury) in rendering decent the homes of the inhabitants of our great cities, and whose present condition was a dark blot on our boasted civilization, and anything but a credit to our wealthy Established Church. In thousands of thousands of those miserable homes—to use the word in such a connection seemed but a mockery—decency was impossible, morality was unknown, and the name of the Most High was never used, except for the purposes of blasphemy or obscenity. It was from such polluted sources that those horrid streams of vice which offended the eyes of their Lordships and the public flowed; and while these terrible sources of evil were left uncared for, to increase and multiply day by day and hour by hour, all such legislation as that now before the House would, he believed, prove but another delusion, mockery, and snare.
§ Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly.
§ Moved, "That the Bill be referred to a Select Committee."—(The Earl of Milltown.)
§ EARL CAIRNSsaid, with regard to the subject-matter of the Bill, a criticism of the wording of it would be more usefully conducted in the proposed Committee than in a Committee of the Whole House; but he did not see any reason why there should be any delay in disposing of criticism of this kind. In any event, he hoped that the Bill would not be delayed by the reconsideration of the whole matter.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he was glad to hear what had been said by the noble and learned Earl who had just spoken, because it was not possible for him to foresee what the decision of the House might be upon the Motion of the noble Earl (the Earl of Milltown). It would certainly be matter for regret if the House should think fit to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, and allow the whole subject and the evidence to be re-opened. Whatever objections there might be to the course suggested by the noble Earl, it would occupy very much less time and delay than if the whole grounds of the Bill were investigated by the Select Committee. While recognizing the excellent spirit of the speech made by the noble Earl who proposed this Motion, yet he must remark that the noble Earl had, in his opinion, furnished good arguments against his own Motion. He had gone through the clauses of the Bill, and his criticisms of the measure had been as able as they usually were. These criticisms, however, had not suggested any questions which it would be difficult for the House in full Committee to discuss. That course was followed last year with a larger and more difficult measure. The House had plenty of time to dispose of at present, and he could not help thinking it unnecessary to follow the course suggested by the noble Earl.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, with reference to the question of time, their Lordships were not oppressed by Business, and there was no danger of 1461 Obstruction arising at a later period which would prevent the Bill going forward until it reached "another place." The delays in "another place" were I such that it was not likely that the measure could be considered there for many months. He, therefore, thought there was some hollowness in the plea of time. With reference to referring the Bill to a Select Committee, he confessed that he should prefer that course. The noble Earl last year expressed an opinion in that sense, which he was not, however, in a position to grant. His feeling was, that it was a matter of very great difficulty to discuss this question in the Whole House and with the reporters present. He earnestly hoped, with a view to the probability of this Bill passing and securing the assent of the House, the objections made by the noble Earl who had moved this Motion would be tested in a Select Committee. They seemed to be, as far as he could judge, sound and full of force. They must not conceal from themselves that in parts of this Bill they were entering into new legislative territory, in respect to which considerable antagonism might be aroused. Formerly they had always dealt with the question of brothels as nuisances, and claimed the right to repress them; but the ground they were now taking was that of attacking these houses from a moral point of view, and dealing with them as an evil in themselves. There was, undoubtedly, a very wide logical chasm between the law as it was sought to be passed and the law as it existed.
§ EARL GRANVILLEsaid, he thought there were certain difficulties in going into a Select Committee with a Bill of this kind. He thought the measure was much more likely to be favourably received in the House of Commons, and its progress through that House would be much more facilitated if the arguments in reference to the Bill were urged from both sides of their Lordships' House rather than that there should be any secret conclave without any person knowing what had been said.
§ Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.
§ Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday the 29th instant.