(NO. 34.) THIRD READING. (Hansard, 3 April 1884)

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
, in moving that the Bill be now read a third time, said, he had received a Petition from the British Medical Association, which was a body of great importance, containing the names of 10,000 registered members of the Medical Profession, and comprising a large proportion of the physicians and surgeons in the hospitals, and the physicians and lecturers attached to the various medical schools throughout the Kingdom, praying that the Bill might be passed into law during the present Session.

THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN
said, he wished, before the Bill left their Lordships' House, to make a few observations in regard to a topic which had been alluded to slightly in the House, and which, he thought, was very likely to meet with some discussion elsewhere. This Bill was undoubtedly a compromise between the opinions of those who held that all medical authorities ought to preserve full liberty to issue medical licences, and those who considered the licences ought to be given only after State examinations. He did not suppose the Lord President was so sanguine as to expect that under these circumstances the Government Bill would meet with the approbation of all the persons and authorities and interests concerned. At the same time, he thought there could be no doubt that the Bill met with a considerable amount of general approbation; and it was very much to be desired, both in the interest of the public and the medical authorities themselves, that the measure should be passed into law during the present Session. A point was raised by the noble Lord (Lord Balfour) the other night, with reference to Scottish Universities. He (the Earl of Camperdown) did not say anything, because he did not wish to say anything disagreeable to those Universities, and also because they discussed this question last year, and the arguments in support of the matter 1463 were exhausted. He was not without! hope that the, Universities made their statement through the noble Lord merely as a protest, and not with any intention of opposing the Bill in "another place." If there was any intention of that kind, he hoped they would not fail to realize the true meaning of their objection. That objection went to the very root of the whole Bill. If the Scottish Universities were to be allowed to retain the power of giving licences, was it to be expected for a moment that the English Universities or the University of Dublin would be contented to resign n privilege to which they attached so much value? No demand was being made upon the Scottish Universities which was not being made on the other Universities of the United Kingdom. It was only the other day that the Scottish Representatives were urging in "another place," with reference to the extension of the franchise, that it was absolutely necessary to treat the Three Kingdoms exactly in the same manner. If that argument held good, he hoped it would also be remembered in connection with the question of medical licences. He was certain that this contention of the, Scottish Universities, if it were acceded to by the Government, would occasion the overthrow of the Bill; and, moreover, he thought the Scottish Universities were not well advised in taking the objection. He believed they suffered more than any other body from the present system of licensing. One of the reasons why medical students had preferred to go to the Medical Corporations for their licences had been owing to the excellence of the examination of the Scottish Universities; but now that there was to be an approximately equal standard of examination in all the Three Kingdoms, it was only reasonable to suppose that many students would go where they could get the best education. He thought the Lord President had treated the Scottish Medical Corporations with the fullest extent of conciliation. He had given them more representation in proportion to the Scottish Universities than he proposed to do in the Bill of last year. He had raised no objection, because he knew very well that in a Bill of this sort it was very desirable that the Privy Council should do everything it could to conciliate all the important existing 1464 interests, and they had a guarantee that in the future the examinations of the Scottish Corporations would be more satisfactory. Supposing that were not the case, there was a provision in the Bill to empower the Privy Council and the Medical Council together to make a change hereafter in the representation of the various authorities on the Medical Boards. Under all these circumstances, he was quite willing to agree to the change proposed to be made in the Bill; but, at the same time, he wished to say that the Scottish Medical Corporations would be very ill-advised indeed if they proposed to force the change further in "another place." The evidence before the Royal Commission, including testimony of the most incontrovertible character—that of the "crammers"— showed that hitherto the examinations of some of the Scottish Medical Corporations had been very inferior. The proposal put forward by the Irish Medical Corporation for compulsory affiliation he hoped would not be listened to for a moment. He cordially agreed with the decision as to the inexpediency of making any addition to the existing titles. This decision would indirectly support and enhance the value of those titles; but if the medical authorities proposed to push this matter further, and to insist that every medical student should belong to one of their Bodies, they would impose a considerable additional cost on them, and place a very strong argument in the hands of their opponents. Nearly all the Universities and Medical Corporations had been so good as to accede to the proposal of taking away the power of giving licences; and there was every reason to believe that the Bill in its present form would receive the approbation both of the Universities and the Medical Corporations. He hoped the Government would press the Bill forward as much as they possibly could in "another place." He did not believe the opposition to it would be of a strenuous character. The delay which had taken place in regard to medical legislation had been very damaging to the institutions connected with medical education and the Medical Profession generally; and he hoped the Government would do all in their power to push on the Bill, which, if passed, would, he thought, be found to be of great advantage to the Medical Profession.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, he was glad flint the Bill had received the blessing of the noble Lord before it proceeded to encounter the dangers of "another place." He was also glad to have the weight of the noble Lord's authority and of the Royal Commission against certain changes which had been talked of in certain quarters, and which it seemed were likely to be attempted in that other place. One of the suggested Amendments — suggested by the noble Lord (Lord Balfour)—was really opposed to the essence of the Bill. The Royal Commission considered the views of the Scottish Universities, and for cogent reasons came to the conclusion that it was absolutely impossible that the Scottish Universities should be treated upon an exceptional footing and given exceptional privileges, not obtained by the Universities of England and Ireland. He felt convinced that the Bill ran no danger so far as public and professional opinion was concerned. Whatever danger there might be would proceed solely from the unfortunate jealousies and fancied interests of certain of the licensing bodies. He hoped that public and professional interests would prevail over such attempts, and that the Bill would in "another place" be treated in the same public spirit as that with which it had been received in their Lordships' House.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
moved a series of Amendments, providing that the Representatives of the Royal University on the Irish Medical Board be four in number instead of three.

THE EARL OF MILLTOWN
said, the Irish Medical Corporations did not object to the old University of Dublin being 1466 given four Representatives; but they did not think that the newly-established Royal University was entitled to so large a number.

§ EARL CAIRNS
said, he should support the Amendment.

§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)
said, he had been unfortunate in his attempts to gratify the Irish Medical Corporations. There was a very strong feeling on the part of the Irish College of Physicians to be put on a footing of equality with their sister Corporation, the College of Surgeons, and he had satisfied himself that would be better; but it was always assumed that the Irish Universities should be maintained in a majority. He had attempted to deal with the matter by giving a Member to the Universities, to be elected by them conjointly or alternately; but that plan was thoroughly distasteful to both of those Bodies, and he could only settle the matter by giving a Member to each. That change simply came this—that the majority was a majority of two instead of one.