§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORD, in rising to ask the Lord President of the Council, Whether he will state the total amount of loans to tenants which have been sanctioned under the Land Law (Ireland) Act, (1881), Section 31, specifying separately the amount lent for farm buildings and the amount lent for drainage and reclamation; also the amount of loans asked for in the applications pending, but not yet sanctioned; and what steps the Land Commission takes to ensure that the money borrowed is expended in a satisfactory manner upon the improvements for which the loans are sanctioned? said, the Question which he had placed upon the Paper was one of some importance, as he was informed that a very large number of tenants had made, and a still larger number were likely to make, application for loans for the improvement of their holdings, either by the erection of buildings, or the reclamation of land, by drainage or otherwise, under the 31st section of the Land Act of 1881. He felt sure that everyone would be only too glad that the tenants of Ireland should be encouraged to improve the holdings which they occupied, more especially as, owing to the Land Act, the landlords were so effectually prevented from laying out money on their properties; but the question arose as to whether this money, which appeared to be granted so easily by the Government, was really expended in a manner that would be of use to the tenants themselves, by making permanent and real improvements upon their holdings in the best and cheapest way in which those improvements could be effected. From his experience of the manner in which tenants' improvements were carried out, he considered that there was an absolute necessity that the most careful personal inspection should be given, not only during the time the improvements were in progress, but also that a Report should be sent in upon them by competent Inspectors, as to whether they were really necessary and likely to be of permanent advantage to the holding. He had had a good deal to do with laying out improvements desired by tenants, for which he was pre- 1255 pared to pay a part, in former years; and his experience certainly went to show that, if such works were left to the discretion of the tenantry themselves, they would not be carried out in a manner calculated to be effective or useful, or that they would benefit anybody concerned. With regard to buildings—which would be by far the easiest thing the Inspectors would have to deal with—he was satisfied that unless the plans for them were carefully laid out by some competent person, they would very often be placed in such a position as to render them most inconvenient for the purpose for which they were intended. If any of their Lordships went over an Irish property, where the landlord or agent had not supervised the sites for the building of farm offices, they would find generally that they had been built in the most extraordinarily awkward and inconvenient position, and that the other arrangements were unsuitable. Therefore, he said that, with regard to the loans for building, it was most necessary that a competent person should draw out the plans, and supervise the improvements that were made; that before a single stone was laid it should be decided what class of work was to be done; and that no money should be advanced unless the plans laid down were carried out. The Inspector should see that the specifications were carried out to the letter, and the site, the mortar, the stone to be used, and the arches over the doors and windows should be arranged for before a stone was placed on the foundation, or a shilling of the money advanced. But buildings, as he said before, were the easiest portion of the work. It would be far more difficult to arrange for, and to see carried out in a manner to be of permanent utility, the reclamation or drainage of land. From his experience of drainage operations, as generally carried out by Irish tenants, he was satisfied that, as a rule, it was done in such a manner as to render it an injury, instead of an advantage to the land, after a very few years. And now, unless the Bill, which he heard had been lately brought in by the Government, had some provision in it to force the tenants to keep their outfalls and drains clear—the powers to do which were taken away from the landlords by the Land Act—a largo part of the 1256 land, drained at a great expense, would revert to beg; and the same thing would eventually occur with regard to the very drains for which these loans were being granted. What he particularly wished to know from the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President) was, what class of Inspector had been nominated to report to the Board of Works as to the efficiency of the improvements before the loan was paid over? He was informed, on good authority, that a great number of tenants were under the impression that a large sum of money was going, and that they had only to apply for some of it to spend—not upon improvements, but upon anything they might wish. And he had been also informed, though he could not believe it, that some of the tenants in the county Cork had actually stocked their land from money obtained from the Board of Works for improvements. He had seen several letters, written by tenants to agents, which showed clearly the ideas that were abroad among them as to these loans. He would not give the names of the agents for obvious reasons, but would be happy to tell the noble Lord opposite, privately, who it was that gave the information. There were two letters, in particular, that showed more distinctly than anything else the ideas which were prevalent with regard to these loans. One tenant wrote to his agent—
There is some of my land going for nothing without grazing it. Now, Sir, I see that a great many small farmers are getting loans from the Board of Works. If you get me £50—half of that to buy some stock to eat what is going for nothing, and give me and the family some milk—then to leave the other half of the £50 until next spring, to drain and make new ditches, which would put my little place in tenantable repair.And the other said—I am determined to try and get some of the Government money at once, since I have no other alternative to get over some of my difficulties. There are two now pressing me for money, and I have not paid my rates. I would take £100; but if I do not get a good share of it at once, it will be out of my power to hold here any longer, as the whole amount would hardly redeem me, including your rent. When your honour would come here on business, you would do the place of an Inspector, and examine the work that would be done here for it; for, as it is well known, you are a tender-hearted gentleman.He read these letters with a view of showing what some of the Irish tenantry 1257 believed, from experience gained from among their neighbours, as to the way the loans could be expended; and he hoped that the noble Lord the Lord President would not only be able to answer his Question satisfactorily, but would also take measures, through the Board of Works, to discourage and put an end to those theories with regard to the leans which were prevalent among the tenantry of Ireland, because they were most pernicious in their tendency. He trusted the noble Lord would also give the tenants to understand that they could not get Government money for nothing to do anything they liked with. Unless those so-called improvements should be really permanent, and should improve the holdings in a fair ratio as regarded the money expended, they would inevitably be most injurious to the landlords' interests; because when a tenant came into Court and proved before the Sub-Commissioners that he had expended so much borrowed money from the Board of Works, for which he was paying interest, unless that improvement could be clearly defined in an enhanced value of his holding, the Sub-Commissioners were pretty sure to cut down the rent, at any rate, by the amount of the interest which the tenant was paying; and if there should be no permanent value produced by the money laid out, it would be the landlords, and not the tenants, who would have to pay the interest for the money which the latter had obtained for their sole advantage. he begged to put the Question which stood in his name to the noble Lord opposite (the Lord President).
§ LORD HARLECHsaid, he fully agreed with much of what had fallen from his noble Friend (the Marquess of Waterford). Personally, he had reason to believe that, in some cases, not one farthing of the loan was applied to improvements. In his own case, one of his tenants had offered him, if he (Lord Harlech) would join in an application for money for improvements, that he (the tenant) would pay his rent. He need not say he had not agreed to the transaction.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that if any Irish tenants, such as those who had written the letters referred to by his noble Friend (the Marquess of Water- 1258 ford), or even his noble Friend himself, imagined that it would be in their power to do what they liked with the money obtained from the Government by way of loan, he was very glad that his noble Friend should have asked that Question; because the sooner such a delusion was removed the better would it be for all parties. It was the more necessary that the Question should be answered, because, as it appeared to him (Lord Carlingford), his noble Friend seemed half inclined to believe it himself. If the tenants referred to and his noble Friend thought that the statements in those letters represented, in the slightest degree, conduct consistent with the requirements of the Board of Works, they were entirely mistaken. The Board of Works, under the orders of the Treasury, appeared to take the greatest precaution that those loans should be properly expended. He could not do better than read a letter which he had received from Colonel M'Kerlie, at the head of the Board of Works, in regard to the system adopted by the Board in this matter. In it he said—
With regard to the steps taken to insure the satisfactory expenditure of the moneys borrowed, the system is that, after the advance of the first instalment, no further advance is made until it has been ascertained by inspection that the previous one had been expended in a proper manner, and full value given for its amount; and, after the last advance, a final inspection is made on the borrower reporting—as he is required to do by letter—that the works have been completed, when, if found in all respects to be satisfactory, a certificate is sent to him of the amount and details of his expenditure. Every precaution is, in fact, taken to see that the loans made are fully and beneficially expended.He had also before him some of the forms of application required by the Board of Works. One form required the party concerned to notify to the Board the completion of the works, in order that the Inspector might see them. Another forwarded him a certificate to be filled up, testifying that the works had been executed, and that the money had been expended on the improvements. He did not know that greater precautions could be taken. As to the facts and figures required, they were these—He had them down to the 16th of June. At that date, 15,019 loans to tenants had been sanctioned, amounting to £161,000; and, although he was not able to give the exact amount in respect 1259 of the three different subjects mentioned in the Question, yet he was informed that about one-third of that amount had been sanctioned for farm buildings. There were still under inquiry 1,442 leans, amounting to £185,000. The total number of applications received was 3,397, and the amount applied for was £390,000. He should be happy to supply further Returns to the House, if the noble Marquess wished.
THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he wished to point out that there was nothing in the regulations of the Board of Works with respect to supervision in regard to the expenditure of the first instalment. The tenant might receive the preliminary amount, and not expend it as he ought; and it was only when he sought for a second instalment that there would be any inspection. he was afraid that, in many cases, the second instalment was never applied for, in which event, no supervision or control was exercised over the proper expenditure of the first. It appeared to him that what was wanted was a due supervision over the expenditure of the first instalment. That was very desirable, because, at present, small tenants might receive the first instalment, and not expend it for the purpose for which it was wanted.
§ EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that beyond the contingency referred to by the noble Earl opposite, he thought it would be easy, after receiving the first instalment, for a tenant to conceal the defects of his work, and thus obtain the second instalment. It was inspection in the first instance that was most required.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, as he was at present informed, these loans were not made in a single instalment, but always in more than one; and no second instalment was made until the Board of Works was satisfied, by the Report of the Inspector, that the first had been well employed.
THE EARL OF LIMERICKsaid, he was afraid the noble Lord opposite (Lord Carlingford) did not catch his meaning. Many tenants might obtain the first, and not apply for the second instalment, in which case no inspection would be made of the works done under the first instalment.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he was no 1260 aware at the moment, that any such cases had arisen; but he would certainly inquire.
§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, he wished to know whether the noble Lord opposite (Lord Carlingford) would cause to be entered, in the Return the number of applications in which tenants had obtained the first instalment, and had not proceeded further with the work? He wished also to point out to the noble Lord that he did not answer one important point with regard to the Inspectors. He (the Marquess of Waterford) bad asked him particularly what class of Inspectors were nominated; whether they laid out the sites for building; and whether plans were handed in which the tenants were obliged to carry out?
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, that he had answered all the paragraphs of the Question on the Paper excepting this one; and the reason why he had not answered that part of the Question was simply because he did not know, but he would make inquiry.
§ THE MARQUESS OF WATERFORDsaid, that he would repeat the Question later on.