§ House in Committee (according to order).
§ Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.
§ Clause 3 (Loans to Town Commissioners from Irish Reproductive Loan Fund).
LORD VENTRYmoved, in page 3, line 20, to substitute "Boards of Guardians" as administrators of the Fund for the "Town Commissioners." He did not see why they should trust the management of this Fund to bodies who had had no connection with it in the past. It appeared to him that Boards of Guardians would be more suitable bodies for the management of the Fund than any Town Commissioners; because this Fund was intended, not specially for the development of any parts of the particular counties dealt with in the Bill—Tipperary and Roscommon—but for the benefit of the counties at large; and if they entrusted the Funds to be administered by Boards of Guardians the whole community would, both directly and indirectly, obtain the benefit of the expendi- 1609 ture, whereas if the expenditure of the money was placed in the hands of the Town Commissioners it would be limited to a few small towns.
Amendment moved, in page 3, line 20, to leave out ("Town Commissioners") and insert ("Boards of Guardians.")—(The Lord Ventry.)
LORD GREVILLEsaid, the object with which the management of the Fund was proposed to be put into the hands of the Town Commissioners was to enable the two counties of Roscommon and Tipperary to carry out certain works for which this money had for the last 40 years been denied them.
LORD VENTRYcontended that, under existing legislation, the Town Commissioners could obtain loans for effecting improvements independently of the Fund in question. Their Lordships ought not to forget that this money was originally subscribed for charitable objects, and that the balance after those particular objects were attained was devoted to casual charitable purposes. He should persevere with his Amendment.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, the effect of the noble Lord's Amendment, if carried, would be that the money would be applied to no use whatever. The fact was, it had lain absolutely idle for the last 50 or 60 years; and it would, if the noble Lord had his way, remain idle probably for 60 years more. The object of the Bill was simply to find some useful purposes for employing this Fund strictly by way of loan, and not by way of grant. He had heard nothing from the noble Lord or anyone else to induce him to think that Boards of Guardians were better bodies for using the Fund in the two counties in question than those bodies which were proposed by the promoters of the Bill. Why Boards of Guardians were considered the more suitable bodies he was not able to understand. He knew that the suggestion of the noble Lord was made by a single Gentleman in "another place;" but it received no support. He had heard nothing as to what use Boards of Guardians would make of these loans. The loans could not be applied for the relief of the poor, for emigration, or for any of the other purposes with which Boards of Guardians had to deal. 1610 Boards of Guardians, for purposes beyond the relief of the poor, such as emigration or sanitary matters, had powers to borrow money already; and if this Fund were put at their disposal he saw no other prospect than that it would be "frittered" away and wasted. Under those circumstances, he conceived that it would be better to leave it in its present useless condition. If the Fund was put within the reach of the Town Commissioners of the small towns in the two counties he could very well conceive that loans could be applied by them to very useful public purposes. The benefits of such loans would not be confined to the towns themselves, but would, as a matter of course, extend into the neighbouring country. As between the two public bodies, which was the only question raised by the noble Lord, he could not doubt that the Town Commissioners had far better means of making use of such loans for useful public purposes than Boards of Guardians, to whom the noble Lord wished to have them transferred.
LORD EMILYsaid, the only change which was made by the Bill was that the Town Commissioners had the power of levying rates for the purpose of paying the instalments of these loans as they became due. What would be the result of that? Of course, they could not ask people to contribute towards objects which were outside their own town; and, therefore, the real object of the Bill was to take the money from the counties of Tipperary and Roscommon and give it to the small towns in which these Commissioners had jurisdiction. The Bill gave these small towns the power of appropriating to their own objects this money, instead of allowing it to be applied to objects which were to benefit the whole counties. He did not like very much Boards of Guardians, if some other more suitable body could be found. He was not sure the Fund should not be handed over to Grand Juries, who had control over the whole of the counties. Still, he thought, on the whole, that the Boards of Guardians had a very much larger and more extensive jurisdiction than the Town Commissioners; and, therefore, if the noble Lord went to a Division, he should vote with him.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRESIDENT of the COUNCIL)said, he would 1611 remind the noble Lord that Boards of Guardians had no power whatever of using these loans. With regard to making the loans available to the whole of the counties that was scarcely possible. In all other counties, with the exception of the two inland counties named, these loans were applied solely for the purposes of the fisheries.
Amendment negatived.
Clause agreed to, and added to the Bill.
Clause 5 (Conditions of loans).
LORD VENTRYmoved the addition of the following provision:—
No money shall be expended under this Act for any institution having for its object the reclamation of criminals.
LORD GREVILLEsaid, he would agree to the Amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to, and added to the Bill.
Remaining clauses agreed to, with Amendments: The Report thereof to be received To-morrow.