MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS. (Hansard, 15 May 1882)

§ EARL BEAUCHAMP
, in rising to move— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty praying Her Majesty to issue a Royal Commission to inquire into the best means of adjusting the boundaries of counties in England and Wales, said, that, in his opinion, the counties, as they at present existed, formed the best area for local administration, although their boundaries, in some instances, required re-adjustment. If those boundaries were re-adjusted in a common-sense way a very large step would have been taken towards the improvement of the present administration of local affairs. In many counties of England detached portions were situate which belonged to otter counties. The county of Worcester suffered in a remarkable degree in this respect. Altogether in England there were 44 detached parts of counties wholly surrounded by other counties than those to which they belonged. Again, many counties had large promontories, as he would call them, running out into other counties. Another source of confusion arose from the fact that many parishes were in two counties. Great inconvenience and harm were caused by this state of things. He thought their Lordships would agree that the inconvenience of a parish being in two counties was one which should no longer be allowed to exist. It was true that some provisions were made in the Highway Acts to obviate these inconveniences; but they were inadequate for the purpose. Certain Acts having reference to the county of Worcester had been passed with the same end in view. But all these measures were insufficient to meet all the evils arising from the present confusion of boundaries. In Devonshire, for instance, he found that 15 out of 20 parishes were in more than one county, and a like complication existed in many other counties. 654 If a new measure of local government in counties was to be introduced, it was especially important that the areas of parishes should be so arranged as to facilitate and not to impede local government. The noble Earl concluded by proposing the Motion which stood in his name.

§ LORD CARRINGTON
said, that, although Her Majesty's Government were unable to agree to the Motion of the noble Earl, they were under considerable obligation to him for bringing forward this most important subject. It was one which had long occupied the attention of Parliament. In 1834 detached portions of parishes situate in counties to which they did not belong were attached to those counties. In 1844 they were given over for all county purposes, and a total of 146,000 acres and a population of 54,000, as it were, changed hands. By Acts passed in 1854 and 1861, the Local Government Board could annex parishes overlapping counties—which did not exceed 100—to adjoining parishes, or could constitute them separate parishes, and were now engaged in doing so. As regarded Unions, they might dissolve them, or add or take away parishes at pleasure. In 1873 a Select Committee was appointed to take evidence on this subject. A great deal of evidence was given with regard to bringing Unions into the county; but they made no recommendation. In 1880 a Bill was brought into the House of Commons by Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice and others for the purpose of appointing a Commission for the rearrangement of boundaries, so that no Union should be without the county boundary. That Bill was withdrawn; but during the present year another Bill had been brought in requiring the Local Government Board to submit schemes for this purpose to Parliament. The Local Government Board now had in their possession all information about divided parishes, and how far it was practicable to bring Unions into county boundaries. In fact, they had every information that could possibly be wanted. He asked, therefore, what benefit would then be gained if the Motion of the 655 noble Earl were agreed to? His speech itself, with all its detail, all its figures, and all its facts, was conclusive evidence that no more information was wanted. An inquiry of that kind would be a lengthy and costly one, and no real good could be done by appointing a Commission to collect information which was already in the possession of the Government. Was it likely that they would arrive at any new conclusion? And, as these recommendations would not have that weight which would attach to a scheme prepared by a well-constituted county authority like a County Board, the best course was to wait till such an authority was constituted, which would be able, with the central authority, not only to inquire into, but to deal effectually with, the whole subject. Under these circumstances, he earnestly trusted their Lordships would not agree to the Motion of the noble Earl.

§ THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)
said, he hoped the Motion of the noble Earl would not be agreed to. He did not think that any good would come of the inquiry. He had been for many years Chairman of a Board of Guardians, the parishes composing which were situated in three counties; but the Board never experienced the slightest inconvenience therefrom. There might be some small matters of detail in which a rectification of the boundaries might be desirable; but they were not sufficient to justify the issue of a Royal Commission. Moreover, a large number of persons would strongly object to having their counties changed. People often took a pride in belonging to this or that county, and would not like to be transferred to another county against their will.

THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON
said, that although he thought the subject a very important one, he wished to ask his noble Friend not to give the House the trouble of dividing. He believed, notwithstanding what had fallen from the noble Earl who spoke last, that great inconvenience did arise from the present system; and thus far he was quite ready to agree with his noble Friend (Earl Beauchamp). The noble Lord opposite who represented the Government on that occasion (Lord Carrington) had given as a reason for not assenting to the Royal Commission that the Local Government 656 Board had every information they could possibly want. That appeared to him (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) to be just the reason why the Motion should be assented to. But he thought that, considering that a measure was actually under the consideration of the other House—the Bill having been read a first time—which dealt with the subject, there would be no necessity, at this particular time, for the Commission for which the noble Earl had moved. He believed that it was unwise to resort to the course of appointing Royal Commissions more than was absolutely necessary; and he trusted, therefore, that his noble Friend would be satisfied with the very lucid statement he had made being put before the country, showing, as it did, the great inconveniences which attached to the present system.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
said, he wished to be allowed to join the noble Duke in asking his noble Friend not to press his Motion to a division. He did not think there was any serious difference of opinion between them on the subject. He apprehended that the noble Earl at the Table was an exception in that respect. A re-adjustment of boundaries was, no doubt, very desirable; but the Motion then before them was one, not for a Commission to make changes in boundaries, but to inquire into the best means of doing so. But they had been inquiring for a considerable time. There were, in fact, few subjects with which those who took an interest in those matters were more familiar, or of which the details were more accurately known. But what they wanted now was some action in the matter. He could only say, on behalf of the Government, that they had hoped before this to deal with the question, along with the larger one of county government; but that hope had been frustrated. They trusted, however, before another year elapsed, to be able to deal with the subject. He was quite certain that the subject of boundaries must be dealt with with the more important one of county government, and that was the direction in which the Government wished, as soon as possible, to move. He hoped his noble Friend would allow the Motion to be withdrawn.