HL Deb 26 June 1882 vol 271 cc377-81
THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN

, in rising to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they will lay upon the Table of the House the Dual Note presented to the Khedive on the 8th January 1882, by the representatives of England and France in Egypt? Said, that before putting the Question which stood in his name, he would like to make two or three remarks on the subject. It appeared to him that the Dual Note, which was presented to the Khedive by the Representatives of England and France, formed one of the most important episodes in the transactions which were taking place in Egypt. It was the result of many communications between the Governments of France and England, and it must have had a very important effect upon the Khedive and upon the Sultan. He (the Earl of Dunraven) was not aware whether the exact text of the Note was contained in the Papers which had been laid before Parliament. There was a telegraphic dispatch from Sir Edward Malet, saying he had presented the Dual Note on the 8th of January; and there was before that a dispatch from the noble Earl (Earl Granville) to Sir Edward Malet, giving him his instructions, telling him that, after consulting the French Consul General, he was instructed to make simultaneous representations. The noble Earl, on the 6th of January, wrote to Sir Edward Malet— I have accordingly to instruct you to declare to Tewfik Pasha, after concerting with M. Sienkiewicz, who has teen instructed to make simultaneously with you an identic declaration, that the English and French Governments consider the maintenance of his Highness on the Throne on the terms laid down by the Sultan's Firman, and officially recognized by the two Governments, as alone able to guarantee for the present and the future good order and general prosperity in Egypt, in which England and France are equally interested. The two Governments being closely associated in their resolve to guard by their united efforts against all cause of complications, internal or external, which might menace the order of things established in Egypt, do not doubt that the assurance publicly given of their formal intention in this respect will tend to avert the dangers to which the Government of the Khedive might be exposed, and which would certainly find England and France united to oppose them. They are convinced that His Highness will draw from this assurance the confidence and the strength which he requires to direct the destinies of Egypt and its people. It was very difficult to understand that the whole of the Identical Note was contained in these words, because the whole tenor and effect of it was completely changed by the reservation or reservations which were made by the noble Earl. If the dispatch which he (the Earl of Dunraven) had read contained the whole of the Identical Note, it appeared to him that it was utterly impossible, but that the scope and intention of the Note must have been misunderstood by the Khedive. In December, the noble Earl first wrote to M. Gambetta, agreeing that the time had come when the two Governments should consider what course had better be adopted by them. Her Majesty's Government also then thought that it was desirable that some evidence should be given of their cordial understanding, but that it required considerable and careful consideration as to what steps should be taken. After some further consideration the matter was a little more advanced. The noble Earl wrote to Lord Lyons— The time has come when the two Governments should consider what course had better be adopted by both Governments. Her Majesty's Government also thinks that it is desirable that some evidence should be given of their cordial understanding. After some further communication, the noble Earl stated that he agreed that it would be advisable To convey collectively to Tewfik Pasha the assurances of the sympathy and support of France and England. That led to the draft of the Identical Note, which was prepared by M. Gambetta, and submitted to Her Majesty's Government, and that appeared to him (the Earl of Dunraven) to be included in the dispatch which he first read to their Lordships. The words contained in the dispatch were very strong and very distinct. They conveyed the assurance that the two countries, France and England, would be found closely associated in the resolve to guard, by their united efforts, against all dangerous complications, and it stated that France and England would be united in opposing any dangers to which the Government of the Khedive might be ex- posed. The Dual Note was agreed to by the noble Earl, but agreed to with a reservation. It was not very easy to understand whether the noble Earl made one or two reservations. In a letter to Lord Lyons he stated that Her Majesty's Government assented to the draft declaration, with the reservation that they must not be considered as committing themselves thereby to any particular mode of action, if action should be necessary. Now, at first sight, that would appear as if Her Majesty's Government merely reserved to themselves the natural right of determining upon the mode in which action ought to be taken, or of deciding upon the particular form in which action ought to be taken; and that was the view of the reservation taken by M. Gambetta, because in a dispatch, dated January 7, he said he observed with pleasure— That the only reservation of the Government of the Queen is as to the mode of action to be employed by the two countries when action is considered necessary, and this is a reservation in which we participate. But there was another view of the reservation taken which was mentioned in a letter from Lord Lyons to the noble Earl, which was received on February 4th. Lord Lyons there spoke of a conversation which he had with M. de Freycinet, who very naturally wanted to know what was the meaning of the reservation of the noble Earl, and Lord Lyons said— I presume Her Majesty's Government is to be understood as reserving to themselves, as a matter of course, the right to determine whether action is necessary, but especially to guard them selves against being supposed to commit themselves to any particular mode of action if action should be found to be necessary. Now, that was quite another matter. That reserve was not only as to the mode in which action should be applied, but the right to decide whether any action of any kind was considered necessary, and was to be applied. This view of the reservation was evidently that of the noble Earl, for in a dispatch to Lord Dufferin he said that— It was not true, as reported in the newspapers, that the French Government had proposed to us, or that we had agreed to promise the Khedive, material support. It was difficult to understand how two great nations like England and France could use their united efforts in oppos- ing anything, or could be found opposed to causes detrimental to the Khedive, if they had determined not to give him any material support. But he the Earl of Dunraven) had nothing whatever to say against any reservation on that ground. It was perfectly right and proper that Her Majesty's Government should judge for themselves whether action was necessary, and what action was necessary. What he really wanted to know was, whether the fact of the reservation was made known to the Khedive; because, if not, it appeared to him the meaning of the Note must have been entirely misunderstood by the Khedive. With the double reservation the Note appeared to him (the Earl of Dunraven) to mean almost nothing. The noble Earl did not seem to have thought very highly of it, if he was correctly stated in the French Parliamentary Papers to have said, in conversation with M. Challemel Lacour, that he "never thought it would be of the slightest use." If the Note could not be of the slightest use, then what was the use of troubling the Sultan and Khedive with it? The Sultan, however, seemed to have taken a different view of it, and thought that it did mean something; because he remonstrated in the most vigorous terms, and stated that he objected to it altogether, as it was an infringement of his Sovereign rights. He (the Earl of Dunraven) did not suppose that if the Note had been read with that reservation, the Porte or any other Government could possibly suppose that Sovereign rights were infringed. But what he (the Earl of Dunraven) principally wanted to know was whether the reservation of the noble Earl, and its proper meaning and character, were incorporated in the Dual Note which was presented to the Khedive; and, if not, whether the reservation, and the meaning of it, was communicated to the Khedive at the same time that the Dual Note was presented? It appeared essential that the House should have some information on these points, because it was otherwise impossible to judge of the meaning of those Parliamentary Papers which had already been presented, and impossible also to judge of the motives and action of the Khedive and of the Sultan. The noble Earl concluded by asking the Question of which he had given Notice.

EARL GRANVILLE

My Lords, it is a somewhat inconvenient course to pursue to give Notice of one Question and then to put another. With regard to the Question of which the noble Earl has given Notice, taking the interest that I know he does on this great and important subject, I think he has read all the Papers, and that it is from a slip of memory he is not aware that the Dual Note was included in the Papers presented to the House so long ago as the 7th of February last. With regard to the discussion he has raised, I really mean to adhere to what I have already stated, unless I am called upon by the House to do otherwise—namely, that, although individual Peers may think it right to make light of, and to invite a discussion of, this important question, it appears to me that the subject should be discussed as a whole, when I shall be prepared to defend the conduct of Her Majesty's Government both with regard to the Dual Note and the reservations, as well as the other points connected with these long negotiations.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

Are we to understand that the noble Earl declines, on this occasion, to state whether the reservation was communicated to the Khedive?

EARL GRANVILLE

I have not declined to do anything of the sort. The reservation was not communicated to the Khedive.