HL Deb 23 June 1882 vol 271 cc182-8
THE EARL OF FIFE

rose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to the statement circulated all over Europe, by Reuter's Agency, that the British Consul in Egypt advises all British subjects to leave the country; and to ask Her Majesty's Government, Whether they consider this Consular action consistent with their intention, expressed in both Houses of Parliament, to maintain the status quo ante in that country? The noble Earl said that, in rising to ask the Question which he had placed on the Paper, he hoped it was not necessary for him to disclaim any intention whatever of embarrassing Her Majesty's Government by putting an inopportune Question, nor did he wish to raise what was described the other evening by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville) as a piecemeal discussion of the Egyptian Question. He simply wished to call attention—and he should do so very shortly indeed—to the action of our Consul in Egypt, which had caused, and was causing daily, a feeling of considerable alarm for the lives and fortunes of a great number of the British residents in Egypt. As their Lordships were well aware, the institution in Egypt which really concerned Europeans the most was the Board of Control. It had been the chief instrument in the remarkable development which had been going on for the last few years in Egypt, and it was obvious that, if it were to be of any use, it must remain in European hands. It was also equally obvious that, without it, the country must lapse into that state of anarchy which Her Majesty's Government had distinctly said they did not intend to allow to prevail. Besides the Board of Control, there had been estab- lished in Egypt, by international arrangements, European administrations for the Daira Lands, the State Domains, the railways, ports, and waterworks; and besides those, still further various and numerous private companies and industrial undertakings had also sprung up, in connection with which large numbers of Europeans were necessarily employed, and which, to use the words employed by the Khedive himself a few days ago, had contributed immensely towards the prosperity and development of the country. All those who were interested in the future prosperity of Egypt, or who had friends or relations out there, had heard, with considerable satisfaction, the speech made a week ago in the other House of Parliament by the Prime Minister, in which he said that— All established rights in Egypt would be maintained, whether they were those of the Sultan, of the Khedive, of the people, or of the foreign bondholders, and that the policy by which the Government would be directed was that of— The maintenance of all established rights, and the provision of due guarantees for those rights. What he (the Earl of Fife) was most anxious to point out—and that only in a few words—was, that no guarantee for those rights was possible without the presence in Egypt of the European administrators and employés—a great many of them British subjects—whom our Consul was stated to have advised to leave the country. Now, had they been advised simply to leave certain disturbed districts, and to go to some locality where they would be under shelter of British guns, in order to prevent the possibility of a massacre, that course would have been perfectly comprehensible; but, instead of that, a permanent exodus—and he used the word "permanent" advisedly, having received private information to that effect—had been steadily going on in Egypt under the advice and encouragement of the British authorities. Indeed, he thought he might say that matters had reached a climax, when it was found that the British Consular Surgeon in Egypt was actually telegraphing to the Lord Mayor of London, and asking him to promote a subscription in favour of the— Thousands and thousands of poor Christian families fleeing from Egypt, leaving all, utterly destitute. Could such a movement, which was nothing short of an appalling calamity to many of our fellow-countrymen, be really necessary when, if we were to believe the explicit statements of Her Majesty's Government, confirmed as they were only yesterday by the speech of M. de Freycinet in the French Chamber—and he certainly believed them—all those institutions in Egypt which he had mentioned and all established rights in Egypt were to be maintained, and when those thonsands of Europeans, whom he might truly call the agents of a beneficent European civilization, who were leaving the country in such numbers under the advice of our Consuls, would be as necessary in the future as they had been in the past? Was it contemplated that, after the holding of the Conference, which, of course, was to arrange everything amicably and satisfactorily, those poor people, who had been deprived of everything they possessed, or who had sold for a trifle, or had been obliged to abandon all the property they had in the world, were to return shortly as beggars to be reinstated in their plundered homes, or were they to be succeeded by others, who would eventually share the same fate? If it were a question of a war, or of a prolonged siege, the result of which might be doubtful, one could perfectly understand humane considerations being allowed to prevail, in order to save bloodshed; but there was no such doubt, because it had been stated most explicitly the other day, by the hon. Baronet the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Sir Charles W. Dilke), in the other House, that under no consideration would anarchy be allowed to prevail in Egypt. This twofold aspect of the Egyptian Question, however, was one that did not appear to be re-assuring. Confidence in London was not consoling to those who had friends and interests in Egypt, if it was only to be translated into "Panic in Egypt." It was not only that there were thousands of these unfortunate refugees crowding the ports of Malta and Cyprus; but we were told that the English Consul General in Egypt actually required the British engineers and workmen the other day to leave their post, even at the risk of a water famine at Alexandria. Since putting the Question on the Notice Paper, he had noticed, among the innumerable telegrams which were appearing every day, one stating that some provision had been made for some of these unfortunate people by the placing of the Lazaretto, at Malta, at their disposal. Although that came somewhat late in the day, it was, no doubt, some slight alleviation to the alarming distress; but it was an alleviation which could only extend to the very lowest classes; and as to the commercial and industrial classes, it was perfectly evident that no precautions that Consuls could take for the protection of their property could be effectual when the owners had left the country. He had purposely refrained from adding a single word which might lead, in the present phase of the question, to a discussion of the political situation; he merely wished to draw attention to that particular point, and should be glad if he could elicit from Her Majesty's Government any assurance of a nature to arrest the present disastrous exodus from Egypt—an exodus which was now producing lamentable hardships, and must, in the future, arrest the progress of a country indissolubly bound up with the closest interests of our Indian Empire. The noble Earl concluded by asking the Question of which he had given Notice.

EARL GRANVILLE

My Lords, I can assure my noble Friend (the Earl of Fife) that I have not the slightest disposition to complain, either of his interest in putting this Question, or of his anxious desire to have the information he has asked for, and still less do I complain of the tone of his speech as regards Her Majesty's Government; and I am sensible of his desire to avoid embarrassing them in one of the most difficult and complicated situations that I ever remember. With regard to one central point, he referred to the declaration of my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister in "another place." I can only say that the Government are unanimous in adhering to that declaration. With regard to the more especial case of complaint the noble Earl has made, that this exodus from Egypt has taken place under the pressure and advice of Her Majesty's Consul, all I can say is, that I really believe that that statement is entirely without foundation. We have no information in that sense of any sort or kind; on the contrary, the information we possess is exactly in the opposite direction. I think I may, perhaps, persuade the noble Earl of that by reading a few extracts which I have here. I find that on June 15th, Sir Edward Malet telegraphed from Alexandria, saying— There is now a panic in Cairo, and European employés are coming away in large numbers. There does not seem to be any valid cause for the panic beyond general feeling of distrust, which has seized all Europeans. On the 16th instant he telegraphed— The Eastern Telegraph Company's clerks have been to me this morning to say they are in fear of their lives, and that they must go on board ship. I have done my best to tranquillize them. Four thousand persons arrived yesterday from Cairo. Mr. Beaman, whom I left in charge of archives, writes that officers say that strictest orders have been given, and that there is no danger to the lives of Europeans. I may also point out that the instructions left by Sir Edward Malet to the Vice Consul Borg at Cairo—for the Consul General was instructed to go with the Khedive wherever he went—were to exactly the same effect— Acting under instructions from Lord Granville, I leave to-day for Alexandria. You will remain here in a position of much responsibility; but I have confidence in your calmness of judgment to take the best measures which may be open to you to promote the safety of British subjects who remain in Cairo. In case of imminent danger, I authorize you, in necessary cases, to provide the expense of the removal of families who cannot afford to pay for themselves at present. I should recommend Ismailia or Suez as points of embarkation, rather than Alexandria, which is already overcrowded with refugees. The noble Earl will see that this which has been done is perfectly different, and apart from any question of encouraging the exodus or alarming the people. From my knowledge of Sir Edward Malet, I am sure that he has shown the greatest courage and calmness in this matter; and I know that every effort made by him, in common with all other European residents in a responsible position, have been made entirely in the direction of tranquillizing the European residents. The noble Earl has referred to the alms which have been applied for. That, however, is a very natural thing. Here are people, under a reasonable and natural panic, flying away in a state of great destitution, and to provide for them in some way is perfectly different from any general encouragement being given them to leave as alleged in the Question.

LORD HOUGHTON

said that he was in Egypt for some time last year, and, from what he saw and heard while there, he could strongly confirm the impressions of the noble Earl (the Earl of Fife) as to the state of the country at that time. But for this accidental movement, whether excited by personal ambition or what was called national feeling, there never would have been any disturbance. From all the evidence they had, the people of Egypt were, he believed, as strongly convinced of the utility of the European Control as the noble Earl himself had been. He was also happy to be able to confirm from personal communications what had been said by the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Earl Granville)—that no encouragement whatever had been given by the Queen's official authorities to this unfortunate exodus. On the contrary, he knew from communications received from one of his own connections who had remained bravely at his post and would remain till the last, as well as from the noble Earl the Secretary of State, that everything which had been done by those who were in any degree connected with England had been good—they had done all they could to quell the tumult in the country and to tranquillize the minds of the European residents, even after the horrible tumult which occurred at Alexandria, by which so much loss of life was caused. The noble Earl (the Earl of Fife) had referred to the terrible condition of the people of Egypt, and he had not in the least degree exaggerated the state of affairs. At the present time they were in a state of social confusion and political difficulty, such as rarely occurred even, in those countries where there were complications between Europeans and Orientals; and the problem to be solved was one of the most difficult that had been known during the history of the world.

THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY

My Lords, I would just remark that Sir Edward Malet must certainly have indulged in an exceedingly sanguine and optimistic view of affairs when he telegraphed to the noble Earl opposite (Earl Granville) that there was no valid reason for distrust on the part of those in Cairo and Alexandria. I think the noble Earl himself took a sounder view of the subject in saying that they were actuated by a reasonable and natural panic. The observations made by the noble Lord who has just sat down (Lord Houghton) were very interesting and valuable as being made from personal knowledge, and, so far as I can hear, all those who have given information in this country on the state of Egypt combine in their testimony as to the admirable success of the efforts of the distinguished men who were Controllers in Egypt, and as to the benefit to that country from English industry which has resulted from that system, and also as to the terrible destruction of English interests and of the future of English investments and property in Egypt as a consequence of the terrible events of the last week. It is very natural that the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Fife) should long to know how the Government propose to restore the status quo ante. It is a problem to all of us. It is very easy to prevent a valuable work of art from tumbling down; but it is not very easy to put it together again when it has fallen and been smashed. All we have to do is to note the promises which the Government gives as time goes on, and to note the manner in which they are fulfilled. There are only two promises to which, in passing, I will just call attention, for I do not quite understand how they are both to be fulfilled. Tremendous injury has been inflicted upon English industries by the disturbances in Egypt. We are told that reparation, for that injury will be exacted. At the same time, we are told that the interests of the English bondholders will be carefully protected. These are both admirable objects, and I earnestly trust they may both be fulfilled; but I fear that they are destructive one of the other, because the only resources out of which reparation can be found for the injuries inflicted upon English subjects must be drawn from the interest which is due to the English bondholders.