§ House in Committee (according to order).
§ Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 5 (Powers of Commissioners).
§ On the Motion of Lord CARLINGFORD, Amendment made, in page 3, line 7, after ("thereof"), by leaving out ("and"), and inserting ("or").
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 6 (Provisions when governing body wholly or partly consists of members of town council, &c).
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he proposed to omit the words "being not less than one-half," which would have the effect of leaving to the discretion of Commissioners the proportion of elected members who should sit in the Governing Bodies, instead of specifying that the Governing Bodies should consist to such extent, being not less than one-half, as the Commissioners should determine, of elected representatives. In supporting the Amendment, he might refer to Hutcheson's Hospital, Glasgow, on the Governing Body of which the municipal element was represented by the Lord Provost. 1349 The municipal element there was, therefore, 1 in 22; but under the Bill as it stood the proportion of the increase would be from 1 to 11. He suggested words which had not yet been printed, but which would make the provision run as follows:—
Provision shall be made in any scheme under this Act relating to such endowments that the governing body thereof, as altered by such scheme, shall consist to such extent, as the Commissioners shall determine, being not less than the existing proportion of the governing body of persons deriving their qualification as aforesaid.
§ Amendment moved, in page 3, line 33, leave out ("being not less than one-half").—(The Duke of Richmond and Gordon.)
§ On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?"
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he was the more inclined to agree to the noble Duke's Amendment for this reason—which was a reason that applied not only to this particular Amendment, but to the whole Bill—namely, that he thought the House ought to be inclined to place great confidence in the Commission which was to be appointed for the purpose of carrying this Act into effect. That appeared to him to be at the root of all this kind of legislation. If they had not a reasonable confidence in the Commission that was to be appointed, there was no use in attempting legislation of this sort, and the effect of the noble Duke's Amendment would be to give a greater discretion to the Commission; whereas, as the Bill stood, they would be absolutely compelled, without any exercise of their own reason, to include in the Governing Bodies a fixed number of members of a certain sort, which it might not be necessary or advisable to do. The Amendment would not debar them from increasing the number, and, in his opinion, it was one that might be accepted.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he quite concurred in the Amendment of the noble Duke, but thought the noble Duke's whole case might be met by simply leaving out the words "being not less than one-half," and providing merely that the Governing Body should consist of the municipal element to such extent as the Commissioners should determine. That would express the noble 1350 Duke's meaning very clearly, and the other words would he unnecessary.
§ LORD WATSONwas understood to say that he could not assent to the clause as it stood.
§ Resolved in the negative.
§ On the Motion of the Duke of RICHMOND and GORDON, Amendments made, in page 4, lines 3 and 4, by leaving out after ("extent") the words ("being not less than one-third"); and in page 4, line 9, by leaving out ("frustrate") and inserting ("be inconsistent with"); and at end of clause by inserting ("or with the purposes of the endowment ").
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that, before they left this sub-section, he should like to ask whether there was any object in retaining the sub-section at all? As it stood, it left the proportion of the representative element entirely to the discretion of the Commissioners, and, of course, they would have the power in any case, so long as the sub-section compelled the Commissioners to make one-third of the Governing Body persons who were chosen for their representative character. Then he could see the object of the sub-section, but now he could not see its object.
§ LORD WATSONsaid, he thought the clause laid upon the Commissioners a very grave duty, to introduce into trusts a certain number of elected persons, and that they should do so in all cases, except in those where the introduction of such persons would be inconsistent with the terms of the endowments.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, the clause was still applicable. All the change that had been made was to give the Commissioners greater discretion than they originally had.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 7 (Scope of Commission).
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHmoved, in page 4, line 18, after ("libraries "), the omission of the following words:—
Provided that nothing in this Act contained shall be taken to compel the Commissioners to restrict any bursary, exhibition, scholarship, or other educational benefit, if attached to or tenable at any educational institution, to the children of persons resident in the locality where that institution exists.He was afraid that these words might 1351 induce the Commissioners to interfere in a contrary way to the letter and spirit of the endowments.
§ Amendment moved, in page 4, line 18, after ("libraries"), leave out to end of Clause.—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
§ On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?"
THE EARL OF ROSEBERYsaid, that, with regard to this Amendment, he thought there was at present quite a sufficient distinction between the two classes of educational benefits which it was proposed to give by this clause. According to one part of the clause, it would be the duty of the Commissioners, in re-organizing endowments, to have special regard, in making provision for secondary or technical education, to the benefit of the children of the locality to which the endowment belonged; while by the other part of the clause, as he understood it, the benefits of the trusts would be open to persons coming from a distance if it should be thought advisable.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, the clause appeared to him to take away with one hand what it gave with the other. He hoped it would be possible to make some alteration in the wording of the clause which would make its meaning clear, in the sense just explained by the noble Earl.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he could not accept the Amendment.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clauses 8 to 11, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 12 (Endowments for apprenticeship fees, maintenance, and clothing to be deemed educational).
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONasked that some explanation should be given with regard to the reasons for inserting the name of the Society for Propagating Christian Knowledge. He did not wish to repeat what he had said the other evening; but it did seem rather hard to particularize this Society. He did not know any reason for bringing it prominently into this 1352 clause. Possibly there might be some reason for it; but till he heard what that reason was he moved that the name of that Society be struck out of the Bill.
§ Amendment moved, in page 6, line 36, leave out from ("children") to ("shall") in line 38.—(The Duke of Richmond and Gordon.)
§ On Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause?"
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he assured the noble Duke that the authors of the Bill had no wish whatever to insert the name of that particular Society; but they were instructed by the Lord Advocate that there might be some doubt about the matter which might possibly lead to litigation with very inconvenient results. It appeared that there was a peculiar wording of the deed constituting that Society which might possibly not bring it within the definition of the 1st clause of the Bill. It was simply for that reason, and for the sake of avoiding any inconvenient consequences, that the name of this Society had been mentioned in this clause; and that name had been introduced, he might add, with the assent of the Society itself. He could assure the noble Duke that that was the sole reason for the mention of the Society in this clause.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHmoved the addition of the following Proviso:—
Provided that nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to prevent a scheme relating to any such endowment from providing, if the governing body so desire, for the continued application of such endowments to the same purposes.The noble Duke said this provision was similar to that inserted in the corresponding clause of the English Act.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 6, line 39, after ("endowments"), add ("Provided that nothing in this Act contained shall be construed to prevent a scheme
1353
relating to any such endowment from providing, if the governing body so desire, for the continued application of such endowments to the same purposes.")—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, the objection he saw to the proposal of his noble Friend was that, as he read the Bill, its object was to bring these Institutions within the power and purview of the Commissioners, while, by the words now proposed to be added, they gave the Governing Body power to say—"We will not be under it." This Proviso, indeed, would nullify the powers of the Commissioners.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, he concurred in the view of the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon). The words proposed to be added would give the Governing Bodies the power of veto upon the action of the Commissioners. That appeared to him to be entirely inconsistent with the principle of the proposed legislation.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 13 (Vested interests).
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, he proposed to insert in page 7, line 5, the words, "or by any Act of Parliament already passed as in interpretation or in pursuance thereof," so that the latter part of the clause would read thus—
And shall provide that no funds now applied in terms of the founders' directions or by any Act of Parliament already passed as in interpretation or in pursuance thereof, to free elementary education shall be diverted to any other purpose except to the extent to which such funds are manifestly in excess of the requirements for the purpose of free elementary education of the localities to which they belong.The Act passed in 1836 with regard to the formation of schools under the Heriot Trust in Edinburgh brought within the benefits of the Trust the children of burgesses of that city, and by a subsequent Act burgesses were defined as persons who had been two years resident within the boundary of the city, and by that interpretation a large number of children had received free education, to the benefit of themselves and of the town; while, if it had not been for these schools, the parents of those children, who were respectable people, would have had to undergo the 1354 humiliation of pauperizing themselves by applying for relief from the Parochial Board.
§
Amendment moved,
In page 7, line 5, after ("directions") insert ("or by any Act of Parliament already passed as in interpretation or in pursuance thereof."—(The Duke of Buccleuch.)
§ LORD WATSONsaid, the Amendment proposed by the noble Duke was a very serious one; and if effect were given to it, it would very largely interfere with the object of the promoters of the Bill. He had very great respect for the opinions of the noble Duke upon all subjects connected with Scotland; but having given considerable attention to the matters dealt with in this Bill, he had come to the conclusion that the Amendment was one which ought not to be accepted by the House. The proposal in the clause was that, so far as any founder of any endowment for an educational purpose in Scotland had laid it down as his will and desire that it should be applied for the purpose of free primary education, that wish should be respected and carried out with this proviso—that funds which were manifestly in excess of what was necessary for the wants of the locality benefited by the endowment were to be dealt with as free funds, and applied to the purpose of secondary education. The proposal of the noble Duke was not merely to respect the will of the founder, but to take into account, in dealing with those endowments, every particular Act of Parliament which had been obtained on the basis of what was supposed to be the founders' wishes. It might be that those statutory powers were in entire accordance with the will of the testator; and if that were so, there were provisions within the four corners of the Bill for giving effect to them. On the other hand, if those statutory powers which had been obtained were not strictly consistent with the will of the founder, or were inconsistent with the intentions of the founder, it was intended that the Commissioners under this Bill should have control, and that they should restore them to the proper course of administration, and apply them according to the founder's intentions. He ventured to say that, as the Bill now stood, no institution need fear a diversion of funds from any purpose fairly 1355 contemplated by the founder; but if the funds had been applied in a manner otherwise than to the purposes contemplated by the founder, in such a case it would be for the Commissioners to revise past legislation, and prepare a scheme consistent with what they conceived to be the will of the founder. Ample provision was made for bringing the matter before either House of Parliament by means of a Motion, and it was impossible to say they could be taken by surprise, or complain that they were unfairly or unreasonably dealt with. If the Amendment were accepted, its effect would simply be to strike out of the Bill two of the largest and richest foundations in Scotland—Hutcheson's Hospital in Glasgow, and Heriot's Hospital in Edinburgh—and affirm really what there was no evidence of, that those Acts of Parliament which had been obtained in recent years did represent the entire will of the founder. Everyone conversant with educational matters in Scotland, and who had read the Reports of the Commissions of 1869 and 1879 as to the constitution of these Trusts, and the application of their funds, must come to the conclusion that there was ample matter for inquiry and investigation by a Body of Commissioners, and that was all that was now proposed to take place. The result of the Commissioners' labours would be either to condemn or support the present application of the funds. After that the Trustees had still an appeal to their Lordships' House, or the other House of Parliament; and he thought it was impossible to say that the interests of those parties were in any way tampered with or disregarded.
§ LORD CARLINGFORD (LORD PRIVY SEAL)said, that the noble and learned Lord had really left him nothing to say. The noble and learned Lord had spoken upon the subject with much more authority than he could; and after his observations he could hardly think that their Lordships would agree to an Amendment which would give to an Act of Parliament the character of the laws of the Medes and Persians, and that not merely to any Public Act of Parliament, but any Private Act which might have been obtained by any institution in Scotland. The noble and learned Lord referred to Hutcheson's Hospital, another educa- 1356 tional institution in Scotland, almost as great and wealthy as Heriot's Hospital in Edinburgh. The extraordinary result of the Amendment of the noble Duke upon the former institution would be that, in spite of its own Act, it would be brought within the Amendment. There was a provision in Hutcheson's Hospital Act of 1872, to the effect that nothing therein contained should be deemed to exempt the mortification from the provisions of any general Act relating to charitable and educational institutions in Scotland which might hereafter be passed by Parliament. Therefore, the effect of the Amendment, if it were carried, would be to entirely upset the arrangements and objects of Hutcheson's Hospital, and, against the will of the Trustees, to subject them to the provisions of the Amendment. He could not think their Lordships would treat an Act of Parliament, which was passed within the last few years, with so slight an amount of consideration; and he was sure they would have confidence in the Commission which was to be appointed in dealing with questions of this character.
THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCHsaid, that after what had been said he would not press the Amendment. He did not see, however, that there was any more sanctity in an Act passed in 1872 than in one passed in 1836.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 14 agreed to.
§ Clause 15 (Interests of particular classes to be kept in view).
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, he rose to move a Proviso to follow this clause, the object of which was to deal with the cases in which the applicants for the benefit of educational endowments might exceed in number the vacant places to be given away. His new clause would require that, in framing schemes, the Commissioners should provide that in making selections from among those who were eligible to receive the advantages of educational endowments, due regard should be had to merit, and it indicated that the means of ascertaining merit should be by examination. He did not, however, propose absolutely to tie the hands of the 1357 Commissioners; and, therefore, he added after the word "examination" the words "or in such other manner as they shall determine."
§
Amendment moved,
At the end of Clause 15 add the following Proviso:—("Provided also, that in selecting children from amongst those eligible for the benefits of such endowment, due regard shall he paid to merit as ascertained by examination or otherwise as may seem to the Commissioners desirable.")—(The Earl of Camperdown.)
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 19 (Provision for future alteration of schemes).
§ On the Motion of Lord CARLINGFORD, Amendment made, in page 8, line 28, after ("any"), by leaving out ("orders") and inserting ("provisional order").
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 20 to 28, inclusive, agreed to.
§ Clause 29 (Special case to court of session on questions of law).
§ On the Motion of Lord CARLINGFORD, Amendment made, in page 11, line 11, after ("scheme"), by leaving out ("feels") and inserting ("feel").
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ The Report of the Amendments to be received To-morrow; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 239.)
§ House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.