MOTION FOR PAPERS. (Hansard, 27 February 1880)

§ EARL COWPER

, in rising to move that the following Papers be laid upon the Table:— A memorial presented to the Prime Minister in August 1877 by a Committee presided over by the Duke of Westminster on the subject of the formation of a Gallery of Casts from the Antique; also, a communication from the Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury to the Duke of Westminster on the same subject dated 16th July 1879, said, their Lordships would agree with him in the opinion that everything calculated to encourage Art in this country deserved support. Two years ago, he had asked a Question on this subject, and the noble Earl at the head of the Government, in his answer, acknowledged the importance of the matter, and had given him an assurance that there would be no difficulty on the score of expense. He had also undertaken to bring the question to a satisfactory conclusion during the Recess. The Recess passed away and nothing was done; and it appeared by the communication ad- 1542 dressed to the Duke of Westminster by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury on the 16th of July, 1879, that the subject was now indefinitely postponed owing to the condition of the finances of the country. All that was asked of the State was a sum of £10,000, either in a lump or in instalments of £2,000 spread over five years. Considering that this course had been advocated by almost all the principal artists and sculptors of the day, by the heads of the National Gallery and the British Museum, and by most of the head masters of our great Public Schools, and by many others; considering, also, that our expenditure in other matters was counted by many millions, he did not think that so small a sum was worth being taken into consideration. He wanted their Lordships to look at what other countries were doing. Germany had suffered far more than we had from the depression of trade; and notwithstanding this, and the extent of her gigantic Armies, she was spending large sums in carrying on excavations in Olympi and Asia Minor. There was some talk of their being stopped; but he believed they would still be gone on with. Four years ago France had begun a collection of casts at the Louvre, which would soon be completed. Sorry as he was for the disappointment, he was almost more sorry for the reason assigned. A reckless expenditure on war and preparation for war, if it had been reckless, was not made more palatable by an overstrained economy as regarded the arts of peace.

§ THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELD

My Lords, I am not at all surprised that the noble Earl opposite, distinguished as he is for his taste and his encouragement of the Fine Arts, should be disappointed in the matters to which he has referred. I am myself disappointed; but I do not think the question could be viewed exactly in the light in which the noble Earl has placed it. This subject must be considered in relation to other claims of a similar character, which have also been made upon the public purse. Now, I think originally when this question was brought forward your Lordships were assured that a collection of Casts from the Antique, as was contemplated, would not be of an expensive character, and would be highly beneficial; but when we had to deal with it, it assumed larger proportions. It so happened that there were 1543 several Institutions which had collections connected with the Art and Science of the country that were urging their claims—and claims which one would suppose to be almost irresistible—upon the attention of the Government, and we had to consider the plan which, on the whole, we thought might best suit and satisfy the various claims. It was thought then that it would be desirable that some arrangement should be made by which these Institutions and collections, all tending to the same object—namely, the elevation of the public taste of the country—should be grouped together in some part of the Metropolis, where they might mutually assist each other by their collections. That involved the necessity of a considerable expenditure. At that moment a considerable expenditure for an object that was not of absolute necessity was not looked upon with such dread by the Government as on some other occasions it might have been. The matter has never been neglected. We have been in communication with the authorities of South Kensington, and at one period we were considerably advanced in the direction that the noble Earl wishes—so far, indeed, that a place of deposit for the collection was under consideration. Well, then, time went on, and I need not inform your Lordships of the effect of time upon the finances of the country. The fact is that an æsthetical education is not as compatible as I could wish with financial depression. I sympathize with the feelings of the noble Earl. It is easy, however, to point to the example of other countries, to speak of the general expenditure on great public objects, and to compare that expenditure with the comparatively trifling sum that is required to fulfil the purpose he has in view. But it must not be lost sight of that when the Treasury, in the present state of the finances, comes to a certain decision as regards public expenditure, that resolution is not come to on account of this claim for £2,000 a-year, or £10,000 in all, for a Gallery of Casts. Such a conclusion is arrived at from a large consideration of a great many items which, individually, may not be of vast importance, but which, collectively, make a sum which must be considered when the finances of the country are not in a flourishing condition. I hope the finances of the country may recover—if not 1544 rapidly, that they will, at all events, recover; and I can assure the noble Earl that I will do my utmost to fulfil the wishes which I believe are generally entertained in this House, and by all persons in the country who appreciate the advantage of having a collection of models of the remains of ancient sculpture. I can say little more to the noble Earl. I will read, if he likes it, the answer to the Memorial of the noble Duke (the Duke of Westminster). It is of a very prosaic character I confess. It is dated July 16, 1879— My Lord Duke,—The Lords Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury have carefully considered the statement which your Grace laid before the Prime Minister with reference to the formation of a Gallery of Casts from the Antique. Their Lordships willingly admit that the institution of such a Gallery would he an advantage to the cause of Art, and are not indisposed to consider the question favourably when a fitting opportunity arrives. The matter, however, cannot be said to be one of pressing importance; and, in the present state of the finances of the country, my Lords feel it their duty to refrain from asking Parliament to impose any fresh charges on the public purse unless they are justified by urgent necessity. Under these circumstances, their Lordships regret that at present they cannot say more than that they will hear the subject in mind for future consideration. I have the honour to be, &c., H. SELWIN-IBBETSON. His Grace the Duke of Westminster, K.G. That is, I admit, not an answer, on the whole, very satisfactory. It is a painful position for the Government to be placed in to refuse some expenditure on an admirable object advocated by some of the most distinguished Members of your Lordships' House; but I am clearly of opinion that it was the duty of the Government to take that course. I earnestly hope that the time will arrive without much delay when we shall be able to carry that object into effect. Of course, we have no objection to granting the Papers.