MOTION FOR A RETURN. (Hansard, 7 June 1878)

THE LORD CHANCELLOR

On the part of Her Majesty's Government, I have no objection whatever to the Return moved for by my noble and learned Friend; and, on my own part, I am very glad that my noble and learned Friend moved for it. Your Lordships will remember that, during a discussion raised in your Lordships' House a short time ago, I had occasion incidentally to state that during the last century Forces of the Crown had been raised and maintained in Ireland without the assent of the English Parliament. I understand that statement has since been challenged. I am told that it has been denied with great strength and energy. I am told that it has been said that the statement was ''absolutely without foundation." Now, my Lords, I do not complain of any observations of that kind—I have no personal feeling on the subject—I am only anxious to put your Lordships in possession of any information on the subject which I may possess; and I hope the Return moved for by my noble and learned Friend 1334 will verify my statement. The argument, as I understood it, that was used was this—that in an Act passed shortly before the beginning of the 18th century—the Disbanding Act, passed for the disbanding of English and Irish troops—it was provided that in Ireland a certain number of troops not exceeding 12,000 should be maintained—the King having the power of determining what the number of troops should be. Those troops were on the Irish establishment. I am aware that some persons consider that that Act, in the circumstances in which it was passed, was not meant to be an Act giving the authority of Parliament to the maintenance of a certain number of troops; but I should rather take the ordinary, and, as I think, the more correct construction, and look on it as an Act for the maintenance of 12,000 troops in Ireland. I will go further, and admit that there was an Act supplementing that one, and authorizing the maintenance of 3,000 additional troops in Ireland. Those were both English Acts of Parliament. But that does not exhaust the history of the last century, and it does not touch that part of the history of Ireland to which I made reference. What number of additional instances may appear from the Return moved for by my noble Friend I do not know; but I can refer to no fewer than seven instances during the last century in which troops in very considerable numbers were raised and maintained in Ireland on the Irish establishment without the assent and authority, as far as I am aware, of the English Parliament. The seven instances to which I refer were in the years 1793, 1795, 1796, 1797, 1798, 1799, and 1800; and your Lordships will find that in those seven years, and, indeed, throughout the whole of the last century, the 12,000 men and the 3,000 men were kept perfectly distinct from the force raised in these seven years. In 1793, the new forces or augmentations were 5,000; in 1795, they were 8,246; in 1796, they were 7,012; in 1797, they were 25,667; in 1798, they were 17,620; in 1799, they were 20,281; and in 1800, they were 33,839—all in addition to the old nucleus of the Irish Army of 12,000 and 3,000 men. I now take the liberty of repeating the statement which I made on a former occasion—namely, that these troops, so numerous, were raised and maintained on the Irish establishment 1335 without any assent or authority from the English Parliament. I hope it will appear from the figures which I have just quoted to your Lordships that the statement I then made was not absolutely without foundation? I am very glad that my noble and learned Friend has moved for the Return, and I would suggest to him that he should make an addition to it having reference to a matter closely connected with this subject. The question as to the raising of troops—whether they must be raised with or without the authority of Parliament—appears to me to be a theoretical or speculative question rather than a practical one. Nobody can imagine that any troops are now going to be raised without the authority of Parliament—and certainly no proposition of that kind has been raised by anybody. The question brought before your Lordships' House the other night by my noble and learned Friend, not now present (Lord Selborne), was a very different one. It was a very practical question. It was this—there being an Army in India of Native troops, authorized by Parliament to be raised, what is the power of the Crown as to the employment of those troops? Your Lordships will see how extremely relevant the question of the employment of the 12,000 troops in Ireland is to the employment of the Native Indian troops. The 12,000 Irish troops were authorized by Parliament to be raised, and it was provided that they were to be kept on the Irish, and not on the English, establishment. The Mutiny Act passed by Parliament year after year referred to the Army provided for the defence of this country and the Colonies—the Imperial Army—but did not include nor in any way touch upon the 12,000 troops maintained in Ireland. Now, just in like manner the Native Indian Army is authorized to be raised by Statute; and just in the same way as the 12,000 troops were to be raised and employed in Ireland, so the Native Indian Army is authorized to be raised by Statute, to be on the Indian Establishment, and to be employed for service in India. In like manner, also, the Mutiny Act does not refer to the Native Indian Army; and, in that respect, the position of the 12,000 troops in Ireland was extremely similar to the position of the Native Indian Army. Now, it would be desirable to have 1336 some information as to the manner in which the 12,000 troops on the Irish establishment were used and employed by the Crown during the first half of the last century; and, with reference to that point, I ask my noble and learned Friend to make an addition to his Motion by wording it so as to include a State Paper on the subject which your Lordships will find of considerable interest. In the year 1736, a question was raised between one of the Principal Secretaries of State and the Irish Government as to the employment of troops on the Irish establishment out of Ireland. The answers were given from the Office of the Secretary at War to questions sent from the Office of His Majesty's Principal Secretary of State. A dispute which had arisen as to the mode of payment of those troops seems to have been referred to the decision of Lord Hardwicke, and questions were prepared for the instruction of Lord Hardwicke. The first Question was this— When regiments on the Irish establishment were first sent to do duty out of Ireland and yet received the Irish pay, with an advanced pay from England? Now, this is the statement of the Secretary at War as to the employment of those 12,000 troops to whom I have referred— Regiments on the Irish establishment have been sent to do duty out of Ireland time out of mind when required by England, and to my own knowledge troops were sent from thence in the reign of Queen Anne and divers times since; and when Irish regiments are brought over from Ireland or sent upon foreign service, it has always been the custom from the day of their embarcation in Ireland inclusive to place them upon the English establishment, or to allow them English pay, although continued with Irish numbers, or, if detained upon the establishment of Ireland, the difference between the Irish and English pay is made good to the commission, non-commission officers, and private men by England; a fresh proof of which is that although the right hon. the Earl of Rothes's regiment of Foot has been several years at Gibraltar, it hath, during the whole time, been kept upon Irish numbers and upon the establishment of that Kingdom, and the difference between the English and Irish pay is made good by the Parliament of Great Britain annually and not repaid by Ireland. This points to that which is also part of the history of that period. It appears, my Lords—and there can be no question about it, because it appears from the Estimates, which are in your Lordships' 1337 Library—that the regiments of the Irish establishment were sent to Gibraltar and garrisoned Gibraltar simply by the orders of the Crown—they were not in any way included in the Vote of men in England, and no consent of Parliament was asked on the subject. Another thing that was done was this. After they had gone to Gibraltar, after they had got there—just as has been done in the case of the Indian troops at Malta—an application was made to Parliament for the cost of transports, &c. There is a great number of instances where that was done in the first half of the last century. I will cite only one. I find in the Estimates of the year 1727, which were laid on the Table on the 6th of February, 1727, that the Estimates are divided into two portions. There is, first, the Estimate for the coming year, just as we have now—giving the number of men on the English establishment and the pay for them. But the second part of the Estimates is ''an account of services incurred and not provided for by Parliament." That is expenditure for which no Vote had been taken; and here are two of the items— For the charge, &c., of transporting the regiments of Colonel Hayes and Colonel Middleton from Ireland to Gibraltar, and for the service of some of the transport while detained there, so much money. Then there is the item— ''For the difference of pay between the English and Irish establishments for the two regiments of Hayes and Middleton from the respective days of their embarcation to the 24th of December, 1727, a further sum. Therefore, the regiments were sent under the orders of the Crown to Gibraltar from the Irish establishment, and application in the following year was made to the English Parliament for the charge for the transports and for the pay of the two regiments—thus forming a perfect analogy to what has now been done in the case of the Indian regiments. I would, therefore, suggest to my noble and learned Friend that he would allow me to add to the Return, for which he now moves, these words— Copy of answers in 1736 from the Office of the Secretary at War to queries of the Principal Secretary of State as to the employment of troops on the Irish Establishment.