§ (The Lord President.)
§ Commons' Amendments considered.
§ Order of the Day for the Consideration of the Commons' Amendments, read.
EARL PORTESCUEsaid, that as he was the Peer who last ventured, while President of the Central Chamber of Agriculture, to impress upon Her Majesty's Government the necessity of legislating for the protection of their flocks and herds from diseases imported from abroad, he must ask their Lordships' indulgence for a few moments while he made some observations before the Bill finally passed away from their Lordships' House. He might begin by thanking Her Majesty's Government, on behalf of the agriculturists, both as regarded the producer and the enlightened portion of the consumers of England, for having undertaken the laborious duty of passing this measure. 1621 On the whole, although he did not think it would leave their Lordships' House in as satisfactory a form as it might have done, still he was of opinion that it was likely to be a very valuable measure. He had said that he must thank the Government on the behalf of the intelligent consumer, and he did so because he was quite sure that the consumers would be as much interested in the matter as the producers of meat. In his view, the production of meat would be considerably increased by the passing of this measure, because it would certainly prevent the introduction of disease; and he had very little doubt that the consumers would—most of them—be of that opinion, notwithstanding the electioneering arts to which had been used in and out of Parliament to persuade them to the contrary. He must say that he felt very indignant at the calumnies and misrepresentations of the motives and objects of this measure, when he remembered that the Central Chamber of Agriculturists, comprising the representatives of local chambers and numerous bodies throughout the Kingdom, passed a resolution which was read to their Lordships last year expressly disclaiming any design to reverse the well established Free Trade policy of the country, and stating distinctly that the protection they desired for their flocks and herds was protection from imported contagion, and not at all from foreign competition. There was no doubt that since the free introduction of foreign live stock had been permitted by law, the farmers of this country had experienced a most terrible outbreak of the cattle plague, the introduction of which had destroyed many millions' worth of property. But since that great outbreak of cattle plague, he was assured by high authorities that foot-and-mouth disease and pleuro-pneumonia, which had been existing ever since, more or less, in various parts of this country, had entailed even a heavier than that loss caused by the cattle plague to the farmers, who naturally felt very great alarm on the subject of disease. And that had led to a considerable diminution of live stock in this country, in spite of the most undesirably high price of meat. The great loss from disease had out-weighed any benefit that might be derived from the free movement of the cattle, and many farmers and consumers had now arrived at the conclusion that 1622 the only satisfactory way to deal with the matter was to exclude the importation of all live stock from the country. His own conviction was that as one good result of the measure, the proportion of dead meat at home and abroad for the consumption of this Metropolis and other large towns would constantly increase. The introduction of a system of cold storage here would probably be productive of a very large and rapid increase in the quantity of meat daily sent to the Metropolis both from abroad and from distant counties. From information obtained from the evidence taken by the Parliamentary Committee on the subject, it appeared that a large increase had already taken place in the quantity of meat sent from Aberdeen and other parts of Scotland—as from his own knowledge he could state that it had from Devonshire and Cornwall—because experience had taught the dealers there that it was a much more satisfactory and profitable mode of disposing of their fat stock. He rejoiced heartily at it on other grounds; because, while it improved the health of man, it diminished the sufferings of the animals themselves, and he expressed his conviction that notwithstanding all that had been said about the suffering caused by vivisection, it was nothing compared with the aggregate suffering of the hundreds of animals during the passage to the Metropolitan Market, from want of food and water, pressure and suffocation, ending, in some instances, in the death of the whole cargo during their long journey. He had had it from good practical authority that every day the cattle spent in travelling they diminished in weight to the extent of eight pounds each animal, at least, on the average; consequently the loss in the aggregate quantity as well as quality of the meat was very great. A great deal of this inconvenience would be saved by the introduction of a system of cold storage into this country. By the present system of importation, the meat was brought to the seaports in ice compartments; but it was taken out immediately on its arrival into the hot streets, and had to be sold at once, because it would not keep. If, however, there were an extensive cold storage system, it would enable the supply of one day's market to be kept over for the next, and tend to equalize prices, which 1623 would be a most beneficial thing both for the consumer and for the producer. In America a very extensive system of cold storage had been established, with the best results; and it had been applied there, not only to the preservation of meat, but to that of vegetables and fruit, and he confidently looked forward to the time when a large proportion of the meat consumed in London which was brought from a distance would be killed at the place at which it had been fattened, whether at home or abroad. Regarding the various criticisms that had been indulged in upon this matter, and more especially those which had reference to the consumption of offal, he had heard from a good practical authority that the price of offal, notwithstanding the large increase in the importation of dead meat from abroad and from distant parts of the country into the Metropolis, had not risen at all relatively to the high prices at which joints were sold. It must be remembered that it was only a small proportion of offal that would bear the cost of transport from the country, although protected by the application of ice. A considerable portion of what was called offal was by no means fit for human food, there being a large quantity of slime and filth from the carcase of the animals, which would make excellent manure if they were killed in the country; but which was not only useless when they were killed in the town, but liable to become a nuisance, and even dangerous to the health of the community, unless the slaughter-houses were most carefully watched by the authorities. It was, therefore, upon sanitary as well as economical grounds that he contemplated with satisfaction the substitution of the importation of meat in the carcase to the Metropolis instead of live animals. He had heard the clap-trap cry of "Free Trade in danger" raised, and he thought that many of those who had taken part in the debates upon the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government had not scrupled to endeavour to obtain support for themselves by raising the cry of "Free Trade in danger." For his own part, he had always been a consistent Liberal and free trader from his youth upwards; but he could not help remembering that the same cry had been raised again and again by those who had been opposed to different reforms. They should re- 1624 member that interference with trade was not always interference for the purposes of protection. For instance, the Members who pressed for the Factory Acts were charged with interference with the natural laws of supply and demand, and the recognized principles of political economy; and this by Sir Robert Peel, when he had just made his alterations in the Corn Laws, continuing that economical anomaly and absurdity known as the sliding scale. He remembered, also, the opposition to interference with lodging-houses, and the same cry was raised with reference to the adulteration of food, by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, who protested indignantly against having Government inspection to protect the people from the practice of adulteration. He thought the good sense of the country was sufficient to put an end to such chimeras, which were at once the offspring of ignorance and selfishness, and that it was now admitted that legislative interference with trade was in many cases the best course they could adopt, not only as regarded the interests of humanity, but also as being in conformity with the soundest and truest political economy.
§ EARL SPENCERsaid, that he had listened with attention to the address which had just been delivered by the noble Earl, and begged to join with him in congratulating Her Majesty's Government in having succeeded in passing this important measure through Parliament; and he thought that the agriculturists of the Kingdom were indebted to the Government for agreeing to the Amendment which was pressed upon them in the other House. The Act would be one of great importance, not only because it effected uniformity of action throughout the country with regard to the various interests concerned, but in other important respects, and would have great influence in diminishing disease. He must, however, protest against some of the views that had been put forward by his noble Friend. His noble Friend used some strong expressions as to the motives of the opponents of the important clause which had reference to the importation of live cattle. He alluded to them as electioneering arts, and even went so far as to say that some speakers in and out of the House had adopted those views 1625 in order to counteract the successful policy of Her Majesty's Government with regard to its foreign policy. He need hardly argue against the latter view; but whatever might be his own opinion of the original clause, he had a right to protest against the motives by which it had been stated they were actuated. In "another place" that matter was taken up by leading statesmen, and it was rather hard to charge them with electioneering arts because they opposed a measure which affected so materially and prejudicially, as they thought, the interests of their constituents. He did not think it was fair to those who entertained those views to accuse them of adopting electioneering arts, because the arguments used against the measure were of great weight and importance. They did not argue that it was a return to Protectionism—for the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon), and those who spoke upon that side, carefully guarded themselves against accusing the noble Duke and his Friend opposite from entertaining Protectionist views. They said, however, that some people in the country had supported the measure because they looked upon it as a return to Protectionism; but they did not impute any motives of that kind to the Government who introduced the measure. He thought it right to protest against this imputation upon the motives of those who were opposed to a measure upon the passing of which he heartily congratulated the Government. He wished to ask the noble Duke a question upon an important point that had been raised in the course of the discussion with reference to the Irish cattle trade to this country. Considerable stress had been laid before their Lordships' Committee upon the importance of having a proper veterinary management in Ireland, and they were unanimous in saying that the Veterinary Department in Ireland was hardly equal to this work, especially considering the great importance of the question to Ireland, where large districts depended almost entirely upon the cattle trade. He could not, therefore, help impressing upon his noble Friend the necessity of strengthening that Department which had the regulation of all the cattle traffic in Ireland, just as the Privy Council had in England. His own recollection 1626 of the Veterinary Department, when he was in Ireland, was that they had not a sufficiently large staff, and his noble Friend would see the importance of its being vigorously dealt with. He therefore ventured to ask the noble Duke, whether he could give the House some information with regard to what had been done towards strengthening the Veterinary Department in Ireland?
§ EARL FORTESCUEexplained that he did not mean to impute any improper motive either to the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Ripon) or to the noble Lords who had opposed the Bill in that House; but it certainly was the impression that many of the speeches, both in and out of Parliament, were mere claptrap for political purposes.
THE DUKE or RICHMOND AND GORDONdid not think it necessary for him to reply upon the latter point, and having already expressed his opinion and belief that the measure would be one of a very useful character, and for the benefit of all classes of the community, no one would be more rejoiced than he should be when it received the Royal Assent. With regard to the question put by his noble Friend (Earl Spencer), he was not able to give any details as to what had been done with regard to the Veterinary Department in Ireland. Their Lordships were aware that the Privy Council had no jurisdiction in Ireland as regarded issuing Orders or making regulations. Those matters rested entirely with the Government and the Lord Lieutenant in Dublin, and he might say that for weeks, if not months, he had been in communication with his Excellency on the subject of the Veterinary Department, and upon the form of the Orders that should be issued by the Irish Government. The two Governments desired to act as much as possible together, so as to put a stop to the progress of disease both in England and Ireland, and he had great hopes that the measures which had been referred to by his noble Friend would be found to be satisfactory. His noble Friend might rely upon it that it was the desire of the Government to make the Veterinary Department as strong as possible.
Commons' Amendments considered (according to Order); several agreed to, with an Amendment, and a consequen- 1627 tial Amendment to the Bill; and one disagreed to; and a Committee appointed to prepare a reason to be offered to the Commons for the Lords disagreeing to the said Amendment: The Committee to meet forthwith: Report from Committee of the reason prepared by them; read, and agreed to; and a message sent to the Commons to return the said Bill, with the Amendments and reason.