CONSIDERATION OF COMMONS' AMENDMENTS. (Hansard, 9 August 1877)

THE EARL OF CARNARVON

, in moving that the Commons' Amendments in this Bill be considered, said he thought it was desirable he should make a few observations on the long Paper of Amendments which had come up with this Bill from the Commons; though, at the same time, he did not intend to ask their Lordships to disagree with any of them. The Amendments seemed to resolve themselves into several classes. There were omissions from the Bill as it left their Lordships' House. Those omissions were for the most part matters of detail. Then there were additions of certain financial clauses which it had not been thought right 646 to insert in their Lordships' House. Again, there were additions which might be described as comparatively unimportant additions of detail; and, lastly, there were some four or five Amendments of considerable importance. To the latter class only he need address himself. The first clause to which he would call attention was Clause 10. It provided for what was called the constitution of the Privy Council. In South Africa the Privy Council meant what it meant in other British Colonies—not a body constituted as was the Privy Council in this country, but rather an Executive Council, or Cabinet of the day. He could not help thinking that there must have been some misapprehension with respect to the Amendments made in that clause. Under the clause as it originally stood, it was provided that the persons who were to be Members of the Privy Council should be from time to time summoned and chosen by the Governor General from among the Members of the Union Parliament—that direction indicating clearly, as he should have thought, that the Members were to be taken from the Parliament and from the majority, and consequently persons who had the confidence of that body. The words "from among the Members of the Union Parliament" had been struck out in the other House. He regretted the omission—not that he thought that it affected the substance of the Bill in the slightest degree; but he would point out that the Members of the South African Cabinet would be chosen just as the Members of the Canadian Cabinet were chosen—from among those Members of the Parliament who had the confidence of that Parliament; so that the clause as altered did not indicate any departure from the principle of self-government as understood by Her Majesty's Government, but would be strictly in accordance with those principles. The second point to which he desired to call attention was a very important one in itself. Clause 25 dealt with the constitution of the House of Assembly. To that clause had been added this Proviso— Provided always that in the apportionment of members, and in the determination of the qualifications of electors and members, provision shall be made for the due representation of of the Natives in the Union Parliament and in the Provincial Councils in such a manner as 647 shall be deemed by Her Majesty to be without danger to the stability of the Government. He thought that in the Bill as it originally stood the Native question, as it was called, had been sufficiently provided for; but though, no doubt, the subject was one of great difficulty and delicacy, he himself entertained no apprehension with respect to it; and, as the Amendment only gave expression to views which he had long held, at the same time that it indicated the greatest confidence in Her Majesty's Government and the Colonial Office, he should be the last person to make any objection to the addition of such a Proviso as this. He thought it most desirable on every ground that, if practicable, the Natives should find some representation in one or both the branches of the Legislature. There had been among them a singular growth of wealth and a singular growth of intelligence; but as between different parts of the country that progress had been very unequal, so that among the Natives there was to be found the greatest barbarism and a high standard of intelligence. Therefore, the question how far you could give effect to the principle of introducing a Native element into the Colonial Legislature would be in this, as in the other Colonies, a question of great difficulty. The precedents were few, and he could not say that they indicated so complete a success as might be desired. The only case which he could call to mind of the latter character was that of New Zealand, where four Members were returned by the whole of the Maories to serve in in Parliament. That had succeeded fairly; but he doubted if the success was more than fair. Then there was the case of Fiji; but there the Natives, instead of forming part of the Legislature had been made, in the persons of their Chiefs, magistrates to administer justice amongst various tribes, and so far as it had gone that experiment had been attended with success. At the Cape the Natives enjoyed the franchise equally with the Colonists; and he said now, as he had said before, that the policy pursued at the Cape was a wise, humane, and liberal policy, and had produced the fruits it deserved. In Natal, where the Government laboured under exceptional difficulties, the White population being immensely out-numbered by the Natives, there was no 648 representation of the Natives, except by means of an arrangement come to between the Colonial Government and the Chiefs of tribes. He saw no reason why the Cape should make any alteration in its present system; and, as regarded Natal, he hoped the Natives would be gradually raised in the capacity of exercising the franchise as time went on. He believed, however, that in respect of the Cape, or the Transvaal, or Natal there could not be a rigid rule; the rule must be elastic, so as to be adapted to the different circumstances of the various Colonies at various eras. There must be a gradual exercise of the franchise by the Natives as the Colony itself increased in wealth and intelligence. He, for one, therefore heartily accepted the addition to the clause, inasmuch as it embodied very much his own views and was, moreover, an improvement to the measure. The 45th clause referred to the Provincial Councils. As the Bill stood, it provided that they should consist of one Chamber. The Colonial Office thought that was the wisest course. At the same time the Cape, as was well known, had two Chambers, and he saw no objection, providing the requisite materials could be obtained, why the South Africa Colonies should not have two Chambers in the Provincial Councils. In Clause 61, it was provided that the Queen, by Order in Council, might authorize the Governor of the Cape or of Natal to annex to either of those Colonies the outlying districts. The words "or of Natal" had been struck out of the clause. He had no objection to raise to that Amendment; but he wished to point out that the provision in the clause tad been introduced with reference to Griqualand and the Transvaal. As to the former, the question did not arise, because a Bill had already passed through the Cape Legislature for the annexation of Griqualand; but as to the Transvaal, there would be a possibility, if the clause passed as it was, of the' annexation of that territory to Natal. Where no representative institutions had been given, he apprehended that the power rested with the Crown of annexing, if it thought it desirable that annexation should take place. He was far from saying that it was desirable to annex the Transvaal to Natal—there were primâ facie reasons for which it 649 would seem desirable. Geographically, they were connected with each other; their dangers were the same, for the Zulu kingdom overshadowed both; and, lastly, the population of both were of the same race. In addition to those reasons there would be political advantages in the annexation, both parties consenting; and, provided that consent were signified before representative institutions were given to the Transvaal, then he held that it would be within the power of the Crown to annex it to Natal. He did not, however, wish to be understood as expressing an opinion that in all the circumstances such an annexation would be desirable, and he had no objection to the adoption of the Amendment made by the Commons. The other House had added to the Bill, after Clause 61, a Proviso that the powers conferred on the Crown with reference to the first establishment of the Union, should not be exercised after the 1st of August, 1852—which Proviso limited the operation of the Bill to five years. The Bill itself was a permissive Bill. Very great powers, he acknowledged, were given to the Crown under the Bill; and when the proposal was made to him by a right hon. Gentleman that at the end of five years Parliament should have an opportunity of re-considering the whole question, he frankly confessed his concurrence in the proposal. Then in the Commons, Clause 4 of the Bill had been omitted. It provided that in the event of the admission into the Union of the Orange Free State or the South African Republic, all persons at the time resident and enjoying the rights of citizenship within the State and Republic respectively, and not being already British subjects, should be declared naturalized subjects of the Queen. The Under Secretary for the Colonies had consented to the omission of that clause, because as all those resident within the Province would become ipso facto British subjects; it was thought that serious objections might be raised by foreigners against compulsory naturalization. Compulsory naturalization might place foreigners—Germans and others—in a difficulty. Again, hitherto in our Colonies naturalization was confined to the Colony itself, and such a clause would confer a superior kind of naturalization to that given by a Colony. He thought, therefore, there was good reason for 650 omitting the clause. So much for the Commons' Amendments to the Bill. Now, a word as to the Transvaal. Up to the date of their latest advices, the state of things was gradually settling down. The rebellious Chief Secocoeni had submitted; the Zulu King had retired; the Queen's authority was now received with hearty enthusiasm in an unbroken line from one end of the territory to the other; and Sir Theophilus Shepstone was welcomed in every part of the country without one dissentient voice. It was only a short time since the annexation had been effected; but so far as one could judge by the events which had occurred since then, the measure appeared to be justified by results. There were in this country at this time two delegates who had come here to lay before the Government the case of the defunct Republic; and though he did not exactly know the sources of their authority, he had thought it right to listen to whatever arguments they could put forward. He told them frankly, on the part of the Government, that so far as any reversal of policy it was idle to speak about that; but in respect of all questions of detail bearing on the happiness and prosperity of the Transvaal, he would be glad to hear them and give weight to anything they might say. And he was bound to say that they had hitherto received what he had stated in the most reasonable spirit, and he had great hopes that satisfactory relations might arise in consequence of those communications. But he wished further to say that he had not received a single Memorial or Petition from any part of the Transvaal objecting to the annexation, or praying for a reversal of that policy. One Petition of that kind had come to the Colonial Office, but it was from a Dutch population who lived in the Cape Colony and at a distance of 1,000 miles from the Transvaal. He thought it was rather hard that a population living at such a distance from the Transvaal, and enjoying the advantages of being under the rule of the British Government, should grudge that advantage to the people of the Transvaal. It was under those circumstances the Bill again came before their Lordships. If he did not think all the Commons' Amendments absolutely necessary, they did not in the slightest degree interfere with the principle or the substance of 651 the measure. He believed himself that the Bill when passed would go out to the Cape with greater weight than had been attached to any former measure relating to the Colonies. The history of this Bill was a memorable one. The Bill would live in the Parliamentary history of England as much as in the history of the Colony. It had been stated that this measure in its passage through its various stages in the House of Commons had received little or no discussion. Speaking from what had appeared in the ordinary sources of information, he ventured to say that never was any assertion less well founded. He had observed with satisfaction that a right hon. Gentleman, than whom there was no one more competent to speak, from his own knowledge and his own Ministerial experience, had expressed his belief that the Bill had been debated in the House of Commons with a fulness not known in the case of any other colonial measure. He would now express his gratitude to the Opposition in that and the other House of Parliament for the frank and hearty support they had given to the Bill. There had been great difficulties in the way of the Bill, and that support was as valued as it had been valuable. The principle of the Bill had been affirmed by enormous majorities, and the Bill went out with the imprimatur not only of Her Majesty's Government and of the Leaders on both sides, but of the maturely-expressed opinion of the House of Commons. He begged to move that the Commons' Amendments be considered and agreed to.