(NOS. 122–131). REPORT OF AMENDMENTS. (Hansard, 4 June 1875)

LORD HOUGHTON

said, he thought it was very doubtful, from the debate which took place the other evening, whether this Bill would, if passed, be advantageous to, or in the interest of, the Church. The right rev. Prelate (the Bishop of Peterborough) had told their Lordships that this Bill had not been brought forward in any spirit of opposition to the laity or lay patronage in the Church of England; but he (Lord Houghton) feared, looking at the memorable division which took place on 1398 Tuesday evening, that this Bill would, if further pressed upon the House, cause a wider breach than now existed between the clergy and the laity. Certainly, he did not think that the spectacle of the two most rev. Prelates, with almost all the Episcopal Bench, and one or two lay Lords voting in favour of a particular clause, and the lay Lords voting against it and rejecting it, would be considered beneficial to the Church. He believed that it was the opinion that this Bill was not called for in the interests of the Church, and it would have a tendency to depreciate the value of property; while it proceeded on the hypothesis that the laity who were patrons of the Church, and others who were interested in its affairs, were likely to abuse their power. At the present moment the protection of the Church from any improper person being introduced into it was perfectly adequate to the prevention of abuse, and it was extremely rare that anything like a scandal had ever taken place under the present system of patronage. There was one point on which the right rev. Prelate who had charge of the Bill (the Bishop of Peterborough) had shown not only that delightful humour of which he was such a master, but an amount of good sense which he (Lord Houghton) was sure must have had its effect on every Member of that House, whatever his opinions might be—and that was with reference to the question of donatives. The argument of the right rev. Prelate showed distinctly that that very peculiar mode of appointing incumbents required amendment. He (Lord Houghton) was sure that if this Bill were withdrawn, and a short Bill introduced for the purpose of altering this mode of nominating presentees to donatives without episcopal jurisdiction, such a measure would meet with no opposition in either House of Parliament. Another point had reference to the abolition of what were called "resignation bonds," as to which his (Lord Houghton's) feeling went on social grounds rather than that they were an injury to property. He thought that, looking at the matter from a social point of view, the abolition of these bonds would have a tendency to increase the severance that was daily taking place in the Church between the clergy and the laity—a result which he was sure would be injurious to both. But the matter was 1399 also arguable upon grounds connected with the question of property, and he had in his hand a letter he had received from a clergyman, in which the writer said if the Bill passed some compensation ought to be given to those who would be deprived of their property. "As it is," said the clergyman, "it will take from me as patron of my living the right to reserve the appointment for either of my three sons, and I estimate the loss at at least £1,000." This was not, he believed, at all a singular case, but one of a large number that might be adduced. Under these circumstances, he begged to ask the right rev. Prelate whether he did not think it was desirable to postpone any further proceedings on this Bill, the success of which in the other House he very much doubted, even should it pass their Lordships' House, and he had no doubt that the discussions in the other House would provoke a very strong and injurious Party feeling that would not be at all favourable to the Church.

THE BISHOP OF PETERBOROUGH

could not assent to the singular and unprecedented request of the noble Lord, that he should withdraw the Bill at its present stage. Their Lordships would doubtless remember the history of this measure. He, in the first place, moved their Lordships for the appointment of a Committee to inquire whether there were any grounds for bringing in such a measure; and in the result a large and an influential Committee of Members of their Lordships' House was appointed, on which certainly the interests of property, of patrons, and of the laity were not inadequately represented. The unanimous Report of that Committee was to the effect that the law upon the subject was in urgent need of revision. The Report was founded largely upon the evidence of laymen, intelligent solicitors, and men of business who were totally unconnected with the Church. Having introduced this measure, their Lordships had sanctioned its principle by reading it a second time; and they had then referred it to a Select Committee, which consisted mainly of lay Peers, including some eminent legal authorities, such as the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack, and of only three Bishops. The measure which was now before them was the result of the labours of that Committee. That was the Committee, so constituted, which 1400 the noble Lord supposed had acted regardless of the feelings of the laity, and had supported a Bill which would be injurious to the rights of property and to the Church. When their Lordships were about to go into Committee upon the Bill the noble Lord delivered a speech against the measure; but, nevertheless, the Bill passed through Committee; and now when the Bill had passed through all these stages the noble Lord suggested that he should withdraw the measure altogether. After the principle of the Bill had received the approval of so many Members of their Lordships' House, it was impossible that he could comply with the noble Lord's request. He confessed that he foresaw none of the evils which the noble Lord prophesied would flow from this measure, and he believed the Establishment of the Church of England would survive many measures of reform as mild and necessary as this, while he was afraid it would not survive many such speeches as that of the noble Lord.