SECOND READING. (Hansard, 25 March 1873)

§ VISCOUNT MIDLETON,
in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, its object was to remove doubts which were entertained as to whether the provisions of 26 & 27 Vict., c. 27, relating to the registration of places of public worship in Ireland and the solemnization of marriages therein, extended to the body or people calling themselves "the Catholic and Apostolic Church," but better known as Irvingites, The difficulty had arisen from the Registrar having refused to register the places of worship of this body because, on conscientious grounds, they declined to call themselves either "Protestant Christians" or "Roman Catholic Christians." Before the Protestant Episcopal Church of Ireland was disestablished, the marriages of those persons were solemnized according to the rites of that Church, and since the disestablishment four such marriages had been solemnized in that Church; but two eminent ecclesiastical lawyers considered that in the cases of those four marriages the parties could not be regarded as having been married "in accordance with the statute." The Bill therefore proposed to remove these doubts by extending the Act of the 26 & 27 Vict.,to members of the Catholic and Apostolic Church; and the 4th clause affirmed the validity of any marriages heretofore celebrated between members of that Church in the same manner as if they had been "Protestant Episcopa- 92 lians." Clause 2 would empower the chief minister of the Church of this body to grant special licences for the marriage of persons being both members of that Church at any convenient place in Ireland. The Bill had passed through the Commons with the sanction of the Government, and therefore, he presumed, there would be no objection to it on the part of their Lordships.

§ LORD REDESDALE
must say that for a very small body, however respectable, to style itself "the Catholic and Apostolic Church" was a rather strong thing. The Irish Church, though disestablished, considered itself the Catholic and Apostolic Church in Ireland, and no doubt the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland would call itself by that name; but for a small body, which for all that appeared might only consist of persons worshipping "in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Adelaide Road, Dublin," to be so described in an Act of Parliament would scarcely be satisfactory. Again, he thought the power of granting special licences to persons being members of the said Catholic and Apostolic Church, which the 2nd clause would confer on the "minister of the said Church for the time being officiating as chief minister of the congregation of members of the said Church at present worshipping in the Adelaide Road Church," was very objectionable.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
said, he could not but think the objections just urged by the noble Lord the Chairman of Committees deserved consideration. If the Bill passed in its present form, there would be really nothing to identify this body. They were described as "the body or people known as the Catholic and Apostolic Church." That title was equally claimed by the Roman Catholics, and the Church of England—not to speak of other bodies—also claimed to be part of the Catholic and Apostolic Church, in the unity of which belief is professed by all who accept the Nicene creed. It was true that in a subsequent part of the Bill there was mention of "the congregation of members of the said Church at present worshipping in the Catholic and Apostolic Church, Adelaide Road, Dublin;" but he did not know whether that congregation 93 was meant to be referred to as constituting the whole of the "body known as the Catholic and Apostolic Church." There was nothing in the Bill to prevent its applying to all the Christians in Ireland. He concurred with the noble Chairman of Committees in thinking that the wide power of granting special licences which the 2nd clause would confer would be objectionable; and he thought that the requirement that both parties to the marriage were members of that Church would give rise to difficulties of proof. The introduction of such Bills showed the importance of legislating on the Report of the Royal Commission on the Marriage Laws, with the view of rendering such Bills unnecessary. They led to mischievous anomalies. At the same time, it was only right that the obstacles in the way of the solemnization of marriages between members of this highly respectable body should be removed, and therefore he did not oppose the Bill; but he hoped that before it left Committee some alterations would be made in it for the better identification of this body and to remove the objection to the 2nd clause.

§ LORD O'HAGAN
said, he had only just seen the Bill. He concurred in what had just been said by his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack. Indeed, he thought that the power which would be conferred by the 2nd clause might lead to great malversation. This was no doubt a respectable body of persons, who ought to have the protection of the law; but he objected to their minister having the power to authorise the marriage of whomsoever he pleased, without check or identification of parties.

§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY
said, he thought it would be a great advantage if their Lordships were to appoint a Committee every Session for the purpose of revising Bills brought into the House of Commons by private Members. Their Lordships rarely knew anything of the circumstances under which they were brought in—they were usually drawn with very little care, and the Government did not exercise over them that supervision which it was necessary they should receive from some authority. Of course, in the case of Government Bills, Parliament had the security which the talent and experience of the Government draftsman afforded; but at 94 present there was nothing to prevent the insertion in Private Bills of anomalies such as those which had been pointed out in the present Bill by his noble Friend the Chairman of Committees and his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack.

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
said, he had no wish to throw any obstacle in the way of the Bill to relieve the body in whose interest this measure was promoted; but, after what had been said in the course of the discussion, it was evident that the Bill contained provisions of a very anomalous character, and therefore he would advise his noble Friend who had charge of it to postpone the Committee until after Easter, and to communicate in the meantime with the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack in order that the Bill might do just what was wanted and not a great deal more.