THE MARQUESS OF HERTFORDrose to put a Question to the noble Marquess the Under Secretary of State for the War Department (the Marquess of Lansdowne). As the circumstance to which the Question related admitted of no delay, he had not been able to give the usual Notice; but he had written that morning to the noble Marquess, so that he might be in a position to inform their Lordships what he intended to do, and he had also thought it his duty to apprize His Royal Highness the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief of that intention. Their Lordships were probably aware that there were seven battalions of Guards, of which four were stationed in London. These had only three bands. Now, he was given to understand that on Thursday last the Adjutant General received orders from the War Office to cause one of the 985 bands to proceed to Liverpool to-morrow on duty, in order to embark next morning for the United States. The Adjutant General thereupon wrote to the Officer commanding the Home District, His Serene Highness Prince Edward of Saxe Weimar, directing him to send the band of the Grenadier Guards—one of the three bands to which he had referred—immediately to Liverpool. The order had been accordingly given, and the band was to embark on Wednesday morning at Liverpool, in order to proceed to Boston, to take part in what was called the "World's Peace Jubilee and International Musical Festival." He was further informed that an officer had been ordered to go out in the same ship to take charge of the band. He only hoped that this gallant officer had great experience, tact, and judgment, for he could not conceive a more delicate office than that which he would have to perform. He was also in a position to state that the bandmaster of the Grenadier Guards, Mr. Godfrey, had actually received £1,000 for the purpose of paying the passage money of the officer and men. Mr. Godfrey was also to receive at the rate of £600 per week while the party was out, and each bandsman would receive £40 when he came back. He was also told—but of this he had no means of judging—that, the band not being of sufficient strength, in order to bring it up to the proper number certain civilians were to go out as members of it, dressed in the band uniform of Her Majesty's Regiment of Grenadier Guards. Now, what power would the unfortunate officer have over this band? It seemed to him that this was one of the most singular proceedings ever taken. It was extraordinary in every way; for the order was given from the War Office—at least he believed so—without the previous sanction of Her Majesty, or of the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, or of the Colonel commanding the regiment. He granted that the information on which he acted stated that the sanction of the Sovereign had been obtained subsequently; but his position was that such an order ought never to have been given by a Civilian War Minister without the previous sanction of Her Majesty. Most heartily did he, for one, regret that such an order had been given. If a civilian could order out one of Her Majesty's bands, equally well 986 might he send out one of the battalions of the Guards without any reference to the Queen's pleasure or comfort. He would not make any allusion to the instruments being the property of the officers, because some change had been made at the time of the Crimean War with which he was not exactly acquainted; but his impression was, that before that time they belonged to the officers. The Colonel, he believed, paid £150 or £200 a-year, and the officers supplemented that sum to a certain amount both for the purpose of providing instruments and band's clothing. That was a strong reason why the Secretary of War should have consulted the officers of the Regiment, through their Colonel, before giving the order. The Officers of the Guards were very much averse to the proceeding, and he believed it would give them the greatest satisfaction if it were countermanded; but, unfortunately, we lived in days when everyone gave way in everything, and nobody stood up for anything. In nine cases out of ten judgment was now allowed to go by default. He hoped it would not be so in this instance, but that a voice of indignation would be raised against this unheard-of outrage. This money which was to be paid to the band could not be paid by the United States Government; therefore, probably the request came at the instance of some advertiser—some Barnum—who, to have the pleasure of showing off the band of Her Majesty's Grenadier Guards, was willing to pay them out of his own pocket, at so much per head. He concluded by asking, If it was true that such an order had been issued by the Secretary of State for War before Her Majesty's sanction had been received, or without the consent of the Field Marshal Commanding-in-Chief, or that of the Colonel of the Regiment?
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEsaid, that if the statement with which the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hertford) had prefaced his Question were accurate, he would concur with him as to the demoralization of the times; but he must give an emphatic denial to two or three of the allegations contained in that statement. It was quite true that in consequence of a request made through the Foreign Office, conveyed through the Secretary of the American Legation in London, permission had been given to the persons conducting the arrangements 987 for the forthcoming musical Festival at Boston to engage the band of the Grenadier Guards for the purpose of taking part in the musical arrangements. The correspondence on the subject had been entered into as long back as September last; but before any order was given for the bandsmen to proceed to Liverpool the War Office had received the sanction of Her Majesty, obtained on the submission of His Royal Highness Commanding-in-Chief. The noble Marquess was mistaken in supposing that any civilians were to go in the band, and to be dressed in the uniform of the regiment. The men were to leave tomorrow; and it was true that they were to proceed to the United States in charge of an officer.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, the answer of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lansdowne) was one of the most unsatisfactory statements he had ever heard;—and he had not answered two or three of the principal points made by his noble Friend who introduced the subject. He understood the noble Marquess to say that on the application of the Secretary of the American Legation, made through the Foreign Office in London, some persons were permitted to engage the band to go to America. To "engage"—that was his word—that meant that leave had been given to American speculators who were desirous of getting up a "World's Peace Jubilee and International Musical Festival," to enter into engagements with the band of one of Her Majesty's Household Regiments. The noble Marquess did not deny that, and therefore it would be assumed to be the case. He wished to know whether persons had come from the United States of America wishing to enter into an arrangement with, and to engage the services of, the band, and were permitted to do so before the sanction of Her Majesty had been obtained? He took it from the statement of the noble Marquess that it was so, and he ventured to say that a more irregular proceeding never took place, and that a more irregular proceeding never was sanctioned by the Secretary of State for War. The most essential part of the Question had been left untouched, and that was how discipline was to be maintained when the band went to America; because bandsmen were liable, like other people, to indulge in intoxicating liquors. Had the officer 988 any instructions given to him to whom was he to apply when he went to America, and under whose orders was he to place himself? He (the Duke of Richmond) hoped not under the orders of the person getting up this "World's Peace Jubilee and International Musical Festival." If so, it was very derogatory for an officer of Her Majesty's Army to be employed in connection with a musical troupe.
§ EARL GRANVILLEmust say that the experience of the Government was not that judgment in their favour was allowed to go by default. He thought the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond) had much exaggerated the facts of this case. The proceeding complained of was not one without precedent. He himself had before now joined with other "speculators" in inviting the military bands of foreign Governments to visit us, and he had never found the proceeding other than productive of good feeling. These bands came under the command of officers, had been cordially received, had behaved admirably, and their performance had given a great deal of pleasure to English audiences. He was informed that military bands of three or four of the greatest countries in Europe—including, he believed, bands from Austria, Russia, and Prussia, but he was not sure as to these particular nations—were going to this Musical Festival at Boston, on exactly the same terms as those on which the band of the Grenadier Guards would go over. He was informed also by a noble Friend behind him that the band of the 71st Regiment of the Line had gone to America before now, had been cordially received there, and had in no way misconducted themselves. He must say that he did not think this was a moment for the House of Lords to show any grudging ill-will towards a country with which we might at present have some difference, but in relation to which we were desirous of standing on the best and most friendly footing.
LORD DE ROSthought that on grounds of discipline the arrangement to which the War Office had given its sanction ought not to have been made.
§ THE MARQUESS OF LANSDOWNEobserved that all the objections made to the permission given to the band to go to Boston would apply to any removal of a band from the regiment to which it belonged.