§ House in Committee (according to Order.)
§ Title agreed to.
§ Preamble,
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDmoved in page 1, line 3, after ("thereto") insert the following:—
("And whereas by Royal Warrant, dated 20th July 1871, all regulations regulating or fixing the prices at which any commissions in Her Majesty's forces may be purchased, sold, or exchanged, or in any way authorising the purchase, or sale, or exchange for money of any such commissions have been cancelled and determined from and after the 1st day of November 1871 in this Act referred as the said appointed day.")
§ Amendment agreed to.
§ Preamble, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clauses 1 and 2 amended, and agreed to.
§ Clause 3 (Compensation to officers holding saleable commissions).
§ VISCOUNT HARDINGEasked, whether exchanges were to be prohibited in future? They had been a great boon, both to the State and to officers, for an officer of small means, to get the Indian allowance, was thus able to change places with another officer whose health debarred him from proceeding to India. It would be easy to prevent any money consideration being given.
§ LORD NORTHBROOKreplied, that exchanges would still be allowed, provided no money was paid beyond the expense of the transaction.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDinquired whether there would be any means of discriminating between officers who had voluntarily retired on half-pay and those who had been compulsorily put on half-pay? Could the latter be put in a better position than the former?
§ LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, the only way of meeting the case would be to give them an opportunity of returning to active service. They would only be compensated under the Bill for the commissions 629 they held on the 1st of November.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Compensation to officers of certain Indian regiments).
THE EARL OF KELLIEexpressed a hope that the Secretary of State for India and the Secretary of State for War would put a liberal construction on the clause, and would grant compensation not only to officers now serving when they should retire, but to those who retired in 1861 under the impression that they would receive no further promotion.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, this clause had no reference whatever to the Indian Army. It was, perhaps, natural that the noble Earl (the Earl of Kellie), who had served in India, should introduce the subject of the bonus to Indian officers, between which system and the system of purchase there was some analogy. In the Indian Army, although no man could purchase above the head of another man, it was allowable for the officers to make up a purse to push each other forward to gain promotion; and there had been some question as to how far they ought to be compensated for the money which they had so expended. The system was considered illegal; but when the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was Secretary of State he suggested a principle of compensation which had been strictly adhered to since. He (the Duke of Argyll) had sent out a circular stating that the instructions of his noble Friend should be carried into effect in as liberal a spirit as possible towards the officers.
§ THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYremarked that the difficulties of this question were very great, and the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) was quite right in saying that the two systems were not precisely alike, so that it was not possible to argue from one to the other. He did not think, however, that any case had been made out for regarding the instructions of the Secretary of State as otherwise than liberal in their tenour, and he should, therefore, support the noble Duke in giving effect to them. At the same time, he would impress upon the noble Duke the fact that, as Parliament had agreed to give compensation for acts which at one time were denounced by the Government as illegal, 630 Indian officers had been led to attach importance to what they regarded as a grievance in their own case, although it was to a great extent imaginary. It might, therefore, be a wise course for the Secretary of State to take the whole matter into consideration, with the view of alleviating as much as possible the condition of the officers referred to by the noble Earl.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 5 (Provision for expense of compensating officers) agreed to.
§ Clause 6 (Jurisdiction of lieutenants of counties in respect of auxiliary forces revested in Her Majesty).
§ LORD VIVIANproposed the omission of the words intrusting the authority to the Secretary of State. As a Lord Lieutenant, he rejoiced at being relieved of this responsibility; but he objected to the selection of officers being confided to apolitical officer, urging that it should be delegated to the Commander-in-Chief, who was entirely unconnected with either party in the State. He must reiterate the conviction which he stated the other week, that if the Secretary of State obtained the powers conferred by this clause, favouritism would largely prevail. He had individually felt the inconvenience of differing from the Secretary of State, although he did not admit, as the noble Duke had stated, that he had been at "open war" with the Secretary of State.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he did not remember using the expression attributed to him; but if he had done so it was not intended in any offensive sense.
§ LORD VIVIANsaid, he thought that in the matter to which he alluded a little favouritism had been shown, and therefore he objected to giving so much power to the Secretary of State.
§ Amendment moved, in page 5, line 2, leave out ("Her Secretary of State, or.")—(The Lord Vivian.)
§ LORD NORTHBROOKwould not again discuss the question of the Cornish Militia, and would merely remark that a Report made by Sir Charles Staveley, who had inspected the regiment, had convinced the Secretary of State that his decision had been right. He wished to point out to the noble Lord that his Amendment would make no difference in the clause, because the power vested in Her Majesty must necessarily be exercised 631 through the Secretary of State for the War Department. As he had already explained, promotions in the Militia would in future be carried out in the same way as in the Army, through the officer commanding-in-chief, after consultation with the Inspector General of the Reserve forces. That arrangement rested upon an Order in Council passed in 1870, in which the duties of the Commander-in-Chief were defined as clearly as those of the Surveyor General of Ordnance, and the Financial Secretary of the War Department. He trusted, therefore, that his noble Friend would be satisfied that promotions would be made in the manner which he recommended.
THE EARL OF SANDWICHobserved, that no good reason had been assigned for superseding the Lords Lieutenant of counties, and asserted that the Reserve forces would prefer to be placed under a general officer rather than under a Secretary of State.
THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDEunderstood that Lords Lieutenant were still to be consulted on various points connected with the Militia, and did not see how their connection with the force was to be kept up unless some jurisdiction was reserved to them.
§ THE EARL OF SHREWSBURYsaid, he would regret to see the power of appointing officers of the Yeomanry and Volunteers taken from the Lords Lieutenant and given to the Secretary of State. It might be necessary to connect the Militia more closely with the Regular Army; but as to the Yeomanry, much depended, on commissions being given by the Lords Lieutenant, who consulted with the gentry of the county, and avoided political bias. He believed that were this change made, the Staffordshire Yeomanry, with which he was connected, would cease to exist.
§ THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he trusted that it would not be supposed that there was any desire on the part of the Government to cast a slur on the Lords Lieutenant of counties, or upon the manner in which they had exercised the powers hitherto intrusted to them. No one could be more opposed to such an intention, because in the early period of the Volunteer movement, from the official position he then held, he had opportunities of observing the zeal which they displayed in the discharge of duties 632 which, for a time, were peculiarly and unexpectedly arduous. It was desired by both sides of the House that a closer relation should be established between the Regular and the auxiliary forces, to effect which was the object of the clause. At present general officers commanding districts could not take cognizance of the Reserve forces unless when they were in actual training, and it was desirable that those forces should be under their administration, which was impossible as long as Lords Lieutenant had their present functions. The noble Marquess (the Marquess of Clanricarde) was correct in thinking that the Government intended still to consult Lords Lieutenant on various matters connected with the Militia, and they would no doubt render useful assistance; but it was necessary to place the appointments and discipline of the auxiliary forces under the control of the Commander-in-Chief, subject to the approval of the Secretary for War, so as to secure, in case of emergency, organization uniform with that of the Regular troops. It would, moreover, be gratifying to officers of the Reserve to receive commissions from the Crown, instead of from the Lords Lieutenant. He objected to the Amendment as probably nugatory, but as maintaining, if effective, a distinction which ought to be removed.
§ THE EARL OF MALMESBURYsaid, he was glad to learn what the intentions of the Government were at the present moment, but remarked that there was no security for the opinions and acts of future Secretaries of State. The whole question seemed to be whether these powers should be in the hands of a military or political personage. He could not conceal from himself the danger of placing this great power in the hands of a political partisan. Noble Lords on the opposite bench might be the purest-minded men in the world, the most innocent, and the least partisan that could be imagined; all he could say was, that if so, they were too good for this world. All experience showed that political advantages might be obtained by certain appointments, and that habit induced men to appoint persons pleasing to them. That any Minister, especially any Member of the present Government, should make a partisan appointment in the Army, had been denounced at a recent banquet as next to impossible; but he 633 remembered that in the very same building, at the commencement of the Crimean War, a right hon. Baronet (Sir James Graham) at the head of the Admiralty openly congratulated the company and the nation on the fact that all our admirals were Reformers. He did not wish to expose the Secretary of State to a temptation to jobbing.
§ EARL GRANVILLEremarked that, though it was not impossible for Secretaries of State to be influenced by political motives or favouritism, Lords Lieutenant, being also fallible, might be similarly influenced. He did not, therefore, think there was much in that point. The noble Earl (the Earl of Malmesbury) had quoted what he admitted to be a foolish speech made by an eminent statesman, Sir James Graham. He would, however, remind their Lordships that of the generals appointed by a Liberal Ministry during the Crimean War—Lord Raglan, Lord Lucan, Lord Cardigan, and General Evans—General Evans was the only one who agreed with them in politics. There might be some exceptional cases; but, as a rule, there could not in matters of national importance, such as the selection of officers, be a fairer choice than that made by a political man in an official position, who was much more exposed to criticism than a Lord Lieutenant.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, that having objected to the Bill for the insufficiency of its details of organization, he felt that it would be very inconsistent to oppose this clause, which was put forward, as a feature of Army organization. It had, moreover, been stated that these appointments would be made in precisely the same manner as in the Regular Army, and the Militia and other officers could hardly feel otherwise than flattered by being taken out of a somewhat invidious position and placed on a footing equal, as far as possible to officers of the Regular Army. The Amendment would leave the matter in an uncertain position, and he supported the clause on the understanding that the selection would be made by the Commander-in-Chief, subject to the responsibility of the Secretary of State.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he believed the principal objections to the Bill arose from the extraordinary powers that would be conferred on the Executive. The Prerogative 634 of the Crown had been gradually transferred to the Minister of War. As he represented the majority of the other House, the check which was formerly exorcised on the Prerogative of the Crown ceased, and purchase, which was again a great check, was now permanently suspended. Thus the Army was virtually at the disposal of the Minister, and how he might use it in circumstances that might arise in the future none could judge. He believed the change very serious and the danger great. By transferring the appointments to commissions in Militia from Lords Lieutenant of counties to the Secretary of State for War the appointments would virtually be transferred to Members of the House of Commons who supported the Government—for at present it is on their recommendation Government makes all local appointments—thus the Army would become a political body. In Ireland, the supporters of Liberal Members were all Nationalists, and so the officers of Militia would be Nationalists, which the privates were already. Then the Irish regiments—he believed, about one-half the Army — were to be quartered near the Militia for the purposes of amalgamation, and thus, if the intentions for which the Army Bill had been proposed by the Government were carried out, there would be an Irish National Army as hostile to England in feeling as any hostile Army that could attack her. Formerly, in time of war, the Irish Militia was brought to England, when the influence of their officers and discipline made them reliable; now by this Bill they would inevitably create an Irish Army.
THE DUKE OF BUCKINGHAMsaid, the effect of the clause would be to transfer the responsibility from the Lords Lieutenant to Her Majesty's Government. He thought that considerable difficulty would be experienced if care was not taken to keep up a local connection between the officers of the Militia and the counties to which the Militia regiments belonged, and, in his opinion, it would be desirable that the appointments should be made on the recommendation of some responsible local officer. He was inclined to think that after the passing of this measure the Reserve forces would be placed on a more satisfactory and efficient footing than was possible now.
§ LORD VIVIANsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
VISCOUNT MELVILLEmoved, in page 5, line 19, after ("issued") to insert—
("All recommendations for commissions in the militia, yeomanry, and volunteers shall be made through the lords lieutenants of counties, and no officer shall be appointed to the command of a militia regiment or to be a field officer or captain of a militia regiment who is not locally connected with the county to which such militia regiment may belong, except at the special recommendation of the lord lieutenant of the county.")The noble Viscount said, that it was most essential to keep up a local interest among the regiments of the Militia, for if that was not done the Militia force could not be maintained.
§ THE DUKE OF RICHMONDsaid, he conceived that it would be a proper subject for consideration on the part of the Government whether the power of recommending to first commissions should not be vested in the Lords Lieutenant, while the promotion to the higher ranks should remain in the hands of the military authorities, who ought not to be precluded from selecting the best men for the higher commands, though they might not happen to be locally connected.
§ LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that the recommendations of the Lords Lieutenant of counties with regard to first commissions would not be neglected by the Secretary of State for War.
§ Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Clause 7 (Number of auxiliary forces) agreed to.
§ Clause 8 (Training for Militia).
THE EARL OF SANDWICHexpressed his opinion that it would be a great mistake to place the Militia and the Line upon the same footing, and that the Militia should be regarded as a feeder to the Line. He also thought that it was a great mistake to billet the Militia at publichouses, because under such circumstances discipline could not be maintained.
§ VISCOUNT HARDINGEsaid, he thought it would be desirable to supplement the Royal Artillery by increasing the number of batteries in the Volunteer forces.
§ LORD EGERTON OF TATTONsaid, that some time ago Circulars were sent out, requiring that proper barracks should be established for the Militia. This force, however, was now to be withdrawn from the Lords Lieutenant, and placed under the control of the Commander-in-Chief. Under these circumstances, he thought it was only fair that the cost of providing barracks for the Militia should be placed upon the Imperial Treasury and not upon the county rate.
§ LORD NORTHBROOKsaid, that he would not enter into the general question as to what position the Militia should occupy in the Army. By Returns received from the officers of the Militia artillery it appeared that hopes might be entertained that a considerable increase in that important branch of the service—the Militia artillery—could be made. As to the Volunteers, he might say that a good many of the men were too small for their work; but, on the other hand, there were some exceedingly valuable batteries, and as far as it could the force should be increased. The Government were fully aware of the great importance of having barracks, and they had intended to introduce a clause upon the subject; but it would require an enormous expenditure to provide barrack accommodation for the whole Militia force.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ Remaining clauses agreed to.
§ Preamble, as amended, agreed to.
§ The Report of the Amendments to be received on Thursday next, and Bill to he printed, as amended. (No. 289.)