HL Deb 28 May 1867 vol 187 cc1193-8

House again in Committee according to Order.

Clause 13 (Provision of Assistance for Bishops disabled by old Age or Infirmity).

EARL GREY

proposed to omit the Clause and to substitute the following Clauses in lieu thereof:— And whereas it is expedient that Assistance should be provided for Bishops who may require it for the more effectual Performance of their Duties; be it enacted, That if the Bishop of any Diocese in England or Wales shall petition Her Majesty to appoint One or more of the Persons holding the Office of Dean or Archdeacon in his Diocese to be Assistant Bishop of the same, it shall be lawful for Her Majesty, if She shall think fit, to present such Dean or Archdeacon by Her Letters Patent under the Great Seal to the Archbishop of the Province, and to require the Archbishop to consecrate the Person so presented to him as Assistant Bishop of the See held by the Bishop whose Petition has been submitted to Her Majesty; and it shall be the Duty of the Archbishop to consecrate accordingly within Three Months of his receiving the Letters Patent the Person therein named. It shall be lawful for Assistant Bishops so appointed to act for any Bishop in the Discharge of such of his Episcopal Functions as he may empower them to perform for him by a Commission under his Hand and Seal; but no Assistant Bishop shall take upon himself any Episcopal Functions except under the Authority of a Commission granted by the Bishop actually holding the See wherein the same are to be performed, and every such Commission shall be revocable at the Pleasure of the Bishop by whom it is granted. It shall be lawful for Her Majesty in Her Letters Patent for the Consecration of such Assistant Bishops to direct that they shall be styled Bishops of such Places not being those from which existing Sees are named, as She may think fit. Such Assistant Bishops shall take Rank and Precedence immediately above Deans, except that no Assistant Bishop shall be entitled to take Precedence of a Dean in his own Cathedal Church or Chapter, where every Dean shall continue to enjoy the Precedence and Authority to which he is now entitled. The noble Earl was understood to say that he would consent to certain modifications which had been suggested to him by the most rev. Primate.

EARL NELSON

, while he supported the first clause proposed by the noble Earl, would suggest that it was desirable that a Bishop should have power to appoint more than one Assistant Bishop. This would meet a want which he believed was much felt by the Bishop of London, who had jurisdiction in reference to foreign congregations, and also had a control over army and navy chaplains. It would be reasonable, he thought, that an Assistant Bishop should be appointed in reference to each of these branches of jurisdiction.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

thought some provision would have to be made for defraying the travelling expenses of those Assistant Bishops whose duties called them abroad.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

moved an Amendment on the 1st clause proposed by the noble Earl the omission of the word "or" after the words "holding the office of dean," and the insertion of the words "canon or rural dean."

EARL GREY

had no objection to the insertion of the word "canon."

THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'S

said, he did not consider this a matter of much importance. If there were no limit the Bishop of a diocese would act according to the spirit of the clause by selecting his Assistant Bishop from among the highest dignitaries of his see; and therefore he had no objection to the choice of the Bishop being limited in the manner proposed by the noble Earl.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON

was also of opinion that the matter was not of much importance. But there was one argument that occurred to him in favour of the proposed limit—namely, that if the Commission were in any case withdrawn from a person holding the position of Dean or Archdeacon, he would still continue as before a dignitary of the diocese; whereas an ordinary clergyman would in such a case lose the high position which had been conferred upon him, and would no longer be one of the dignitaries of the diocese.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

said, he could not see the object of the proposed limit. De did not see why the choice of the Bishop in the selection of his Assistant Bishop should be limited.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD

thought it would be well to leave a larger field of selection to the Bishop than the words of the clause at present allowed. He trusted the words "rural dean" would be agreed to as proposed by the most rev. Prelate. The preservation of the territorial title would remove a great many difficulties in the working of dioceses connected with large towns.

LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY

took it for granted that when the commission of the Assistant to any particular Bishop determined he would cease to retain any official power in the diocese. He thought the selection should be left perfectly open to the Bishop.

THE EARL OF POWIS

was also in favour of leaving the selection entirely open to the Bishop, confiding, for proper selection, in the veto of the Crown.

LORD WHARNCLIFFE

said, he also thought it not wise to place any restriction on the selection of the Bishop.

LORD LYTTELTON

said, he would be satisfied with any form of the Amendment which might recommend itself to the adoption of the Committee.

Clause 13 omitted.

Then the first clause proposed by Earl GREY amended by the insertion of the words, "canon, honorary canon, prebendary, or rural dean," after the word "archdeacon."

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

moved to add to the end of the clause a provision to the effect that no such appointment or consecration should render void any benefice or cathedral preferment then held by such person.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

wished to know whether it was intended that the person appointed should at the same time hold a parochial benefice? He thought it would be a novelty to allow a Bishop to hold a parochial cure.

THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY

said, that the Colonial Bishops did so.

THE BISHOP OF LINCOLN

said, he must remind their Lordships that the new Suffragan Bishops were not endowed.

EARL RUSSELL

observed, that the holding of benefices in commendam by Bishops had been abandoned, and he did not understand why the practice should now be revived.

THE EARL OF DERBY

said, that the office of Assistant Bishop would be an unpaid office. Who could expect a clergyman to give up his benefice, which might constitute his whole income, in order to accept an office which was a purely honorary one?

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

observed, that what had to be considered was the requirements of the parish, which had a light to the administration of the parochial clergyman.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON

said, that the office of Assistant Bishop was analogous to that of Archdeacon; and an Archdeacon could perform similar duties without vacating his benefice.

Amendment agreed to.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

It was then moved that the next of Earl GREY'S clauses be added to the Bill— It shall be lawful for Assistant Bishops so appointed to act for any Bishop in the Discharge of such of his Episcopal Functions as he may empower them to perform for him by a Commission under his Hand and Seal; but no Assistant Bishop shall take upon himself any Episcopal Functions except under the Authority of a Commission; granted by the Bishop actually holding the See wherein the same are to be performed, and every such Commission shall be revocable at the Pleasure of the Bishop by whom it is granted.

LORD PORTMAN

objected that this clause as worded would enable an Assistant Bishop, once appointed for a particular diocese, to exercise similar functions in another.

THE BISHOP OF LONDON

observed, that as it was generally deemed desirable there should be as few of those Assistant Bishops as possible created he saw no good reason why, when their duties in one diocese came to an end, they should not be employed in other dioceses rather than that new Assistant Bishops should be consecrated.

EARL GRANVILLE

said, his noble Friend had no objection to that; he only objected to a suffragan officiating in one diocese while he held a commission from the Bishop of another.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD

And why not? Suppose the Bishop of London had a suffragan; why should he not, on an emergency, cross the river to assist the Bishop of Winchester?

After some remarks from Lord SIANLEY of ALDERLEY, Lord PORTMAN, and The Earl of HARROWBY,

THE EARL OF DERBY

suggested that the words "from time to time" should be inserted before the words "empower them to perform." The Bishop of any diocese would thus be able if occasion required by issuing his commission to avail himself of the services of an Assistant Bishop who had originally been appointed to another diocese without giving him the authority of an Assistant Bishop in his own diocese.

EARL NELSON

said, that a Bishop could not consecrate a church situated just beyond the limits of his own diocese without first obtaining a special commission from the Bishop of the diocese to enable him to do so.

VISCOUNT HALIFAX

did not understand how any difficulty could be raised in this matter, seeing that the proposed Assistant Bishops could not act in any diocese without a commission from its Bishop.

THE EARL OF ELLENBOROUGH

said, there was no authority in the Church for the consecration of Assistant Bishops as such. If Bishops were consecrated, they must be consecrated with the full powers attaching to their office, and not with mutilated powers.

After further discussion, the words "from time to time" inserted.

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Third Clause— It shall be lawful for Her Majesty in Her Letters Patent for the Consecration of such Assistant Bishops to direct that they shall be styled Bishops of such Places not being those from which existing Sees are named, as She may think fit.

THE EARL OF HARROWBY

was understood to object to the clause.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD

hoped the noble Earl would not persevere in his objection. All those antiquarians, ecclesiastical or otherwise, who had gone deepest into the matter had always maintained that there never had been a Bishop consecrated who had not been associated with some see. He was quite aware that Bishops in partibus infidelium had been nominated in the Romish Church; but the Anglican Church considered that mode of appointment merely a sham, and that no Bishop ought to be consecrated without a territorial title.

THE BISHOP OF ST. DAVID'S

asked, whether that provision was intended for the purpose of preserving an episcopal succession? It might suffice if the Assistant Bishop were styled the Assistant Bishop of the particular diocese, whatever that might be, in which he was to act. In the Church of Home there were no Bishops in partibus for places which had not at some time previously had a Bishop, and it was supposed in that Church, by a fiction, that there had been a continued line of such Bishops.

LORD LYTTELTON

said, he did not consider the proposed clause would be any great innovation, while it would be a great convenience that such Bishop should be associated with the name of a place even without local jurisdiction.

THE EARL OF POWIS

did not see the necessity of giving the Assistant Bishops a territorial title, and pointed out that the Coadjutor Bishops of the Romish Church in Ireland had no territorial title.

THE BISHOP OF OXFORD

said, that the noble Earl was mistaken in the instance of the Coadjutor Bishops.

Clause amended by the insertion of words, providing that the Assistant Bishops shall not retain the titles after the commission appointing them has ceased to operate.

Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.

Last Clause— Such Assistant Bishops shall take Rank and Precedence immediately above Deans, except that no Assistant Bishop shall be entitled to take Precedence of a Dean in his own Cathedral Church or Chapter, where every Dean shall continue to enjoy the Precedence and Authority to which he is now entitled, —agreed to, and added to the Bill.

The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday next; and Bill to be printed as amended. (No. 118.)