COMMITTEE. (Hansard, 15 March 1867)

THE EARL OF BELMORE
, in moving that the House go into Committee on this Bill, said, it was proposed by the Select Committee that several modifications should be introduced into it. With respect to the coal trade, the discharge of casks down cellars, and the timber trade, it was intended that the stringent rules contained in the 6th and 9th clauses, and which applied to the whole metropolis, should be relaxed, and that the restrictions should be 1910 limited to the principal thoroughfares, the great object being to keep open the leading routes. It was proposed that the regulations prohibiting the loading and unloading of goods in certain streets should be abandoned, otherwise the total destruction of warehousing in those streets would be the result. The limitations in this respect would now apply only to the through traffic. With respect to hackney carriages, it was originally intended that there should be no fare less than 1s. The cab-owners, however, having considered this matter, had come to the conclusion that it would be injurious to them, because they would be deprived of a great number of 6d. fares which they got under the present I arrangement. The original proposal was therefore abandoned. With regard to the introduction of a better class of hackney carriages, it was proposed that where a proprietor of carriages was desirous of letting them at higher fares he might make application to the Commissioner of Police, who, upon inspection of the vehicle, might grant a licence to ply at a higher rate of charge, the licence stating that higher amount. It was also provided that the carriage should be taken for inspection to the Commissioner of Police or some person appointed by him at least once every two months. Some slight modifications had also been made with respect to the removal of snow, and regulations were laid down for the protection of shoeblacks and commissionaires, to prevent the work being carried on by unauthorized persons.

§ LORD REDESDALE
thought that there should be some relaxation respecting hours between summer and winter. It had been represented that in winter the time was too limited for the removal of furniture and many of the operations of the building trade.

§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
desired to say a word on behalf of a very deserving class of poor men who were ordinarily called "sandwiches." He had a great deal of communication with these men, and he knew them to be very de- 1911 serving. Most of them were aged, those who were young were generally cripples, and if they were put out of employment by the operation of the Bill, they would be reduced to absolute starvation. A few years ago they were put down by the police, and when he spoke to Sir Richard Mayne in their behalf, Sir Richard said that they were a quiet body of men, but that the shopkeepers objected that they obstructed doorways and shut out customers. He did not think this objection on the part of the large shopkeepers ought to be allowed to deprive these poor people of a livelihood. He thought that if the word "board" were struck out of the clause the object would be attained.

LORD HOUGHTON
said, he gladly supported the suggestion of the noble Earl. It had been given in evidence before the Committee that these were a most inoffensive body of men, and if the clause were to pass unaltered about 700 people would be thrown out of employment. He was a great peripatetic, he went about London a good deal, and he had never found any inconvenience from these men whatever. To say that they were more in the way than other people walking about was absurd.

§ LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY
said, that for the sake of finding employment for a few infirm old men, the "sandwich nuisance" ought not to be allowed to continue. Very often these men carrying about placards on the pavement frightened horses, and prevented carriages driving up to shop doors. If they were to make an attempt to clear the streets of obstructions, he hoped that no alteration would be made in the Bill.

THE EARL OF BELMORE
said, that at present these men could be dealt with by the police under the Metropolitan Act.

§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
said, he had never heard sandwich men called nuisances before. He challenged proof of an instance in which they had frightened a horse. They were only objectionable to shopkeepers with large windows. These men were generally infirm, and resorted to this employment as the last means of gaining a subsistence. Their Lordships would do a kind act if they struck out the word which included them.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
deemed the sandwich men a nuisance because they walked in the gutters and presented a formidable array to be encountered by a carriage driving up to a shop door.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
suggested 1912 that it might be possible to limit the height of the boards which the men carried.

EARL DE GREY AND RIPON
said, the object of the clause was a good one, being to keep the streets clear of obstructions; and if these men obstructed the clear passage of the streets they ought to be stopped. He thought they would find other employment.

§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
rebutted from his own knowledge the allegation that these men could easily find other employment, and said that the result of the passing of the clause would be a most serious injury to them.

THE MARQUESS OF WESTMEATH
said, that 4,190 persons had been killed or injured in the streets of London between 1858 and 1865; and therefore he was justified in concluding that there was not proper control of the traffic; and he attributed the accidents to the furious driving of light carts, which were often in charge of youths who thought it good fun to drive recklessly. He proposed, therefore, to introduce a clause to check the evil— And be it enacted, That it shall be incumbent upon the Owner of any Cart or Vehicle plying in the Streets in the Butchers Trade or Costermongers Trade, or any other small retail Traffic, to have a Tail Board attached thereto, and to have inscribed thereon a Number the Figures of which shall not be less on each Figure than Two Inches in Length, and that Number as a Designation of such Vehicle shall be registered in the Office where other Hackney Carriages are registered, and that any Prosecutor against the Offence of reckless driving shall be entitled to refer to that Number as a sufficient Identification of the Vehicle and its Owner; and that if any such Vehicle shall be found plying in any Street without such Number thereon, the Owner or the Driver thereof shall be subject, on Conviction, to be imprisoned for One Month.

THE LORD CHANCELLOR
said, the object of his noble Friend was a good one; but he was afraid that it would not be attained by the insertion of the proposed clause. In the first place, it would only affect the carts of butchers, costermongers, and others engaged in small retail traffic. It was obvious, however, that the magistrates would find it difficult to define what a small retail traffic was. Moreover, the clauses under discussion related to vehicles 1913 plying for hire in the streets. Then his noble Friend proposed to impose a tax on such carts, but he doubted whether a clause relating to taxation could be introduced in that House. It was also suggested that the carts should be of a peculiar construction, and that the tail-boards should be numbered so conspicuously that even weak sighted persons might read the figures. No provision was made, however, that the tailboards should be kept up. Under all the circumstances, he must object to the insertion of the clause.

§ THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY
said, this clause affected the Shoe-black Brigade which would be to some extent placed under the control of the Commissioners of Police. He might mention that none of the lads occupied the best stations for more than a fortnight, or at most three weeks at a time. If all the arrangements, however, were left to the police, he feared that the whole system of the society would fall to the ground.

THE EARL OF BELMORE
said, it was understood that the societies would always be consulted before any new regulations were made. The object of the clause was to prevent unauthorized persons from interfering with the regular shoe-blacks.