§ LORD REDESDALEasked, Whether it was the intention of Her Majesty's Government to have the Cavalry Barracks at Knightsbridge pulled down; and in that event, whether those persons who were to benefit by the removal of the Barracks were to find a site and build other barracks at their own expense? He was induced to bring the subject forward in consequence of his having seen in the newspapers, and heard from other sources, that a great agitation was being raised by persons connected with property facing or adjoining the barracks, with the object of getting them pulled down. He had been informed by persons who were well acquainted with the subject that these were extremely good Barracks, and that their situation was the best that could be found for them in the metropolis for the services which the regiment quartered there, being the Household Troops of Her Majesty, were called upon to perform. They were also most conveniently placed for giving assistance to the civil authorities should the necessity unhappily arise. It had been reported that the Barracks were unhealthy—but he had heard from officers who had been quartered there the strongest authority of their remarkable healthiness. In fact, they were more healthy than the Regent's Park and Windsor Barracks. It was objected that these Barracks were unhealthy because a considerable portion of the soldiers' living-rooms were over the stables; but many of their Lordships' grooms and servants lived over stables and they did not complain of anything injurious. The only other objection was that the hospital was not so good as it might be; but that might be easily remedied. It would be going too far to say that any barracks built in former days were perfect with regard to all their arrangements—indeed, he believed it was doubtful whether the new model Chelsea Barracks, which had been recently erected at a great expense, were perfect in regard to ventilation and other matters. It was evident that this was a movement originating with persons who were interested in the property in the district, and who desired the removal of the Barracks with a view of improving their property at the public expense; and he thought that the persons who were agitating for the removal might fairly be called upon to provide another site and erect 1471 barracks at their own cost. When he asked a short time ago when the new Government offices were to be proceeded with, he was told that the money was not forthcoming for that most important object, and to remove these Barracks at the public expense — and he supposed it would cost £150,000 to find a new site and rebuild the Barracks—would, under such circumstances, be a most wanton expenditure of public money. The present site was a very good one, and he doubted if another so advantageous for the Household Troops could be obtained. The removal of the Barracks would be most unfair to those who used them, and would be followed with the greatest inconvenience. He hoped there was no intention on the part of the Government to accede to the request of interested parties.
THE EARL OF LUCANsaid, he should not be doing his duty if he did not express his opinion upon this matter, as he knew of no barracks in the country as good as those at Knightsbridge. He was glad to see the noble Earl the late Secretary for War (Earl De Grey and Ripon) in his place, as he had not the pleasure of listening to him when on a former occasion he had expressed himself so forcibly upon the subject. The noble Earl was reported to have said that the Barracks were so hopelessly bad that it was impossible to do anything in the shape of improving them, and that it was so unhealthy that it would admit of no sanitary alteration whatever of worth. But he (the Earl of Lucan) found that the Household Troops occupied these Barracks alternately with the Windsor and Regent's Park Barracks, and he had in his hand a statement to show that the Knightsbridge was the most healthy of the three. On what, then, did the noble Earl found his very bad opinion of the Knightsbridge Barracks? It could not be on insufficient space, because the men had on an average 700 cubic feet of air each; it was true the stables were only ten feet high, and perhaps it would be better if they were twelve; but how many of their Lordships had stables not more than ten feet high? He had known the Barracks many years, and had never heard of any serious sickness among the horses there. He challenged any noble Lord to produce a case of sickness among the horses. Doctors were known to be very fastidious; but the surgeons of his own regiments had expressed their surprise at the spaciousness of the Knightsbridge Barrack 1472 Hospital; the wards were no less than sixteen feet or eighteen feet high, and the only objection he had heard to the wards was that the windows were too high and prevented the sick from looking out. He therefore could not understand how it could be said that these Barracks were so hopelessly bad that they should be pulled down at a cost of £300,000 or £400,000. He did not exaggerate in making that estimate; the Chelsea Infantry Barracks, which would not hold 1,000 men, without officers, had cost the country nearly £200,000. [The Duke of CAMBRIDGE: £250,000.] He preferred being within the estimate, but would say £250,000. Could it be seriously intended wantonly to pull down Barracks which occupied the best possible site in a military point of view? However ill - disposed the late noble Secretary for War might be towards these Barracks, they would certainly survive him if left to time. No doubt there was a great outcry raised against the Barracks by persons in the neighbourhood; he held in his hands a petition addressed to a Secretary for War urging their removal; but the petition contained no allegation which was not false, and he believed its promoters had not only gone to every house in the neighbourhood but had gone every day in the week until they had extorted a signature. The petitioners asserted that the Barracks had been condemned by successive Secretaries of State; but he (the Earl of Lucan) could not endorse that assertion:—they said that the neighbourhood was infested with disorderly characters, and might be likened to the Haymarket; now, he had taken the trouble to make the comparison, and in his opinion there could not be a greater mistake. The petitioners also "respectfully referred to the statement made by Earl De Grey" that no barracks in the United Kingdom were as bad as those at Knightsbridge.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONasked, whether the noble Earl would be good enough to tell him when he made that statement.
THE EARL OF LUCANsaid, he was glad to hear the noble Earl ask that question, because he had already expressed the opinion that every statement in the petition was false; no doubt the statement had been put in the noble Earl's mouth; but every one knew it was untrue. The noble Earl was further stated in the petition to have said that 1473 it had long been the wish of successive Secretaries of State for War to remove these Barracks and to build others more suitable to the requirements of the troops and with all the modern improvements. He was therefore happy to find that the noble Earl had made no such statement. He believed the Barracks were at the present time in a most healthy state and required scarcely any sanitary improvements—certainly not more than £ 100 or thereabouts would pay for. He was under the impression that there was some speculative builder ready to buy the property, and that the outcry against the Barracks had been raised by persons who might make a good thing out of it. The Barracks did not, he believed, cover more than three or three-and-a-half acres, and, supposing the land were to revert to the Crown to-morrow, what would be done with it? Would they lay it out in buildings? In his opinion, houses erected on that site would be as great a nuisance as the Barracks themselves were supposed to be. On those grounds he felt strongly opposed to the views of the noble Lord.
THE EARL OF LONGFORDbelieved there was no intention on the part of the military authorities to surrender the Barracks at Knightsbridge. The subject had been mooted more than once, and the only approach to any idea of that kind might, perhaps, have arisen from the fact that the War Office had intimated to those who petitioned for their removal their willingness to accede to the request, provided barracks equally commodious and a site equally convenient were furnished without any expense to the War Office. That amounted, therefore, practically to a fixity of tenure; because it would be impossible to find a site equally convenient, and there were no funds available even if such could be found. With regard to the memorial, he certainly had seen the document to which the noble Earl had referred, though it had not officially come under the notice of the War Office; but its arguments had, he thought, been disposed of by the noble Earl. The remedy for the state of things complained of was in the hands of the inhabitants themselves, for it was quite in their power to proceed against the disorderly houses in the neighbourhood instead of proceeding against the Barracks, which were not disorderly. It was, no doubt, desirable to improve the approaches to the South Kensington Museum and the new Hall of Arts and 1474 Sciences; but still there were some persons so stolid as to think that Cavalry Barracks were quite as ornamental as a Hall of Arts and Sciences. No doubt, by the removal of some of the houses at Knightsbridge a great improvement might be effected; but the cost would be immense, and he very much doubted whether that or any future Parliament would consent to the large expenditure of public money that would be required for such a purpose.
LORD DE ROS, having attended the annual inspection of these Barracks for eighteen years while employed on the Cavalry Staff, did not hesitate to assert that they had always been considered one of the best Cavalry Barracks in England. The Inspection Returns, if referred to, would also show them to have been peculiarly healthy both as to the men and the horses. He thought that barrack improvements had in some instances been carried to a most absurd extent. The Barracks at Chelsea, for instance, were a standing reproach to the country, the architecture was of such a character that it was almost impossible to pass them without laughing, while they were so ventilated that the inmates were at times almost blown out of their beds. It so happens that pocket-handkerchiefs are no part of the equipment of the British soldier, which seemed to bear hard upon men placed in positions so peculiarly favourable to catching colds. Several supposed improvements had also been made at the barracks at Windsor, where, among other things, three or four warm baths had recently been erected. These baths had only one objection, and that was that no provision was made for warming the water—so that the men in using them either had to sit in empty baths or to confine their ablutions to cold water. He did not think the Secretary for War of the last Administration (Earl dc Grey and Ripon)—whom he regarded as a very able administrator—was to blame for these matters. The fault was probably attributable to certain gentlemen in the War Office, who were rather fertile in the invention of new schemes and plans, without much practical knowledge of the habits and requirements of the soldier. He might add that, with regard to the Barracks at Knightsbridge, every Report presented by Inspecting Generals of the Cavalry had referred to them in favourable terms, while the charges of misconduct alleged against 1475 their occupants were as unfounded as the abuse of the Barracks, since the records of the regiments of Household Cavalry sufficiently prove the remarkable good conduct and sobriety of the men of those distinguished regiments.
§ THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGEI wish, my Lords, to say a few words before this discussion closes, it having been asserted that the opinion of my noble Friend (the late Secretary of State for War) was that the Barracks are so bad and so inefficient that they ought to be pulled down. The question certainly was discussed; but I was quite surprised at hearing that statement, because my memory, which is by no means a bad one, will not justify me in coming to such a conclusion. I am quite prepared to acknowledge that the public have complained about the appearance of the Barracks; and it was upon that fact that the idea of their removal was originally founded. But when we came to look into the subject we found that the Barracks were thoroughly good, though undoubtedly capable of some improvement; and even at the present moment some portions of them are not quite such as the)' ought to be. These, however, are questions which ought to be attended to, and no doubt they would have received that attention on the part of the military authorities before now but for the desire that has been expressed in some quarters for the entire removal of the buildings. A few days ago I went over the Barracks with a view to seeing what improvements were necessary, and, with the exception of certain repairs and alterations, there can, I think, be no doubt that the Barracks are very good and efficient. Still, however, it must be admitted that their appearance from without is a little objectionable in an artistic point of view. In the present day that portion of the Park in which they are situated is much frequented by carriages, whose occupants can find in the appearance of the Barracks no very pleasant prospect. That, however, may be remedied by a small expenditure of money. In a military point of view the Barracks are among the best in the metropolis. London, too, has of late years, grown so much that it is very important the soldiers, as well as the public, should have some open space for exercise, and Hyde Park is one of the few spaces at present at their service. I wish, also, to add, with reference to the conduct of the troops, that I have felt it my duty to make very close inquiries 1476 on the subject, and I have not the slightest hesitation in saying that no body of soldiers have behaved themselves better than the Household Cavalry (the two regiments of Life Guards and the Horse Guards Blues). When, therefore, the removal of the Barracks is sought to be effected on the ground that the troops do not behave well, the charge is one which I must repudiate. I quite agree with the noble Earl who has remarked that these Barracks are the healthiest in the metropolis. I do not, however, quite agree with my noble Friend (Lord de Ros), who has expressed an opinion so unfavourable to sanitary improvements, for they have certainly tended much to the comfort and general health of the troops. All these matters—such as lavatories and other things—though small matters in themselves, tend to create a feeling of respectability in the men. I cannot concur, therefore, in the opinion that the Knights-bridge Barracks ought to be removed.
EARL DE GREY AND RIPONsaid, he had no recollection of having spoken on this subject in the terms set forth. Nothing could be more unlikely than that he should at any time have used the strong language referred to by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Lucan), because if he had thought that the Knightsbridge Barracks were the worst in England, he should, in the pursuance of his duty, have recommended Parliament to take steps for their improvement or removal. At the same time, it should be recollected that the construction of the Barracks had been complained of as being very faulty in a sanitary point of view. That was the opinion of the Barrack Hospital Commission presided over by the late Lord Herbert. The question of their removal was considered by the late Lord Herbert, the late Sir George Lewis, and himself; and though reasons were urged for entirely remodelling them or building them on a different site, yet the objections to their present situation were not of so overwhelming a character as to make it necessary, in the opinion of Her Majesty's late Government, to call upon Parliament for the large sum of money which would be required for that purpose. He trusted the question of removing the Barracks would now be decided one way or other. He was glad to be able to bear his testimony to the good conduct of the Household Cavalry; no troops in Her Majesty's service conducted themselves better than they did.