THIRD READING. (Hansard, 6 August 1867)

THE EARL OF LUCAN
moved an Amendment that it be read a third time that day three months. He entirely approved the object of the Bill, but he impugned the decision of the Select Committee to which the matter had been referred. It seemed to him that the Bill was not calculated in the slightest degree to effect the object for which it was intended. There was, however, a mode of attaining that object without any of the objections he entertained to the present measure. The Committee had examined the Managers of all the principal railways having termini in London, except the Manager of the London, Chatham, and Dover line. Five Managers had been examined, and every one of the five was adverse to the Bill — more especially on the ground of expense. Captain Tyler had also been examined, and he was adverse to it. Not one word had been said by any one of those six witnesses which should have induced the Committee to sanction the Bill. The Managers complained that it would put the railway companies to an 954 expense of not less than £500,000, and that after that expenditure the plan provided under the Bill would be found so ill-conceived that probably another £500,000 would have to be expended before the object in view was attained — if indeed it could be attained at all. They might suspect that evidence; but it must be admitted that the objection was fair. The Managers did not object to a large expenditure for a system of communication between passengers and guard, if such system were made uniform and compulsory. They were perfectly ready to adopt any system approved by the Board of Trade, if the responsibility of the system were to rest with the Government. But to be effective the system laid down must be uniform and compulsory. There were eight lines between London and Perth, and he believed not fewer than 100 throughout the country. How, then, was it possible to effect the desired object if there were to be different systems on different lines? He believed that object might easily be effected by a Committee of the Board of Trade, or of two or three scientific men. Besides the witnesses to whom he had referred, three or four others had been examined by the Committee. They were patentees, and very naturally they recommended their own plans of communication; but they did not recommend this Bill. He must confess that in his opinion communication between passengers and guard was not of that essential importance which it was generally considered to be. He thought it would be wise to adopt it, because there were timid persons who believed there was danger, and it would be quite right to remove these apprehensions. But in reality there was very little danger.

THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY
said, the noble and gallant Earl was quite correct in stating that the Railway Managers who had been examined before the Committee had expressed opinions unfavourable to the provisions of the Bill; but their objection was more on the score of expense than to the adoption of a system of communication between passengers and guards and guards and drivers. There was one of them, however, the Manager of the South Eastern Railway, who informed the Committee that a system of communication between the guards and the passengers had actually 955 been established on that line, and that it seemed to work well. It was but fair, however, to add that that gentleman had said that he was doubtful as to whether the question was ripe for legislation, and that there would be some difficulty in adapting the System to all railways. Another Manager—he believed the Manager of the Midland Railway—had also pointed out that a scheme of communication had been in operation on that line between the guard and the driver, and there was no reason why the scheme should not work successfully if it were extended to the passengers. All those who travelled much by railway were, he thought, of opinion that some means of communication between the passengers and the guard should be established. It was only that morning that he had read a letter in The Times from Mr. Broadhurst, who mentioned that an accident had occurred a few days ago on the North Staffordshire line, and that many lives would in all probability have been lost but that the train happened to be going slowly, and that a pointsman saw the frantic signals of the passengers in time to enable the driver to stop the train. Of course, it was expedient that if a system of communication such as that provided by the Bill were set on foot it should be uniform, and he could not see why the various railway companies might not act together and adopt the same system. If the House should not proceed with the Bill in the present Session, he hoped the subject would be taken up by the Board of Trade during the recess, with the view of seeing whether, in conjunction with the railway companies, they could not hit upon some scheme which would be satisfactory, and which might next Session be submitted to Parliament for its sanction.

§ THE DUKE OF RICHMOND
entirely concurred in the view stated by the noble Earl to have been expressed by the Manager of the South Eastern Railway, that the subject was not yet ripe for legislation. There seemed to be at present a System of communication between the guard and the driver; and he was quite ready to admit that it would be a great advantage if a system could be devised by which communication between the guard and passengers in trains could be safely established. It must, however, be borne in mind that when such a system was devised considerable difficulties would still remain to be overcome. Was the guard of a train, for instance, to pull it up under all cir- 956 cumstances the moment a passenger communicated with him? Must he at once stop in the middle of a tunnel, or suddenly while the train was running along an incline? If he were obliged to do that greater dangers would be occasioned than now existed; and if the question of stopping or not were left to the guard a greater extent of responsibility would be thrown upon him than was at all desirable. In the case of the North Staffordshire Railway, to which the noble Earl had alluded, there was, he believed, no communication between the guard and the driver, and, if there had been, the danger to which Mr. Broadhurst referred would not in all probability have occurred. The noble Earl had very truly observed that no system of communication could be regarded as good unless it were universally acted upon by the various railway companies; but then the present Bill contained no provision making it compulsory upon them to make use of the same system. He concurred, however, in the opinion that something ought to be done in the matter, and he would during the recess enter into communication with the railway companies for the purpose of carrying out that object. If the negotiations should not be attended with success, then Parliament might take the question into its own hands.

§ EARL GRANVILLE
suggested to his noble Friend not to press the Bill. It was satisfactory to hear that the Board of Trade would give its attention to the subject.