HL Deb 01 August 1862 vol 168 cc1063-77
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

, in presenting a Petition from the Cotton Supply Association in favour of the Ma- dras Irrigation and Canal Company's scheme for the Construction of a Canal connecting the District of Bellary with the Port of Madras, with a view of assisting the Cultivation and Export of Cotton in that District, and to move an Address for "Papers received since the 21st July, 1861, relating to the Godavery," said:—My Lords, I shall not detain your Lordships with any preliminary observation upon this important subject, but I may explain that I have joined the presentation of this Petition with the other matter of which I have given notice, because the works of the Godavery and other kindred works must have an immense influence upon the supply of cotton from India. Last year I had the honour to submit a Motion in relation to the works of the Godavery, and I wish to point out the progress which has been made since that time, as well as the effects produced, and likely to be produced, upon the general state of India. Only the other day I received an account of the appearances presented at the great port of the river in these terms— Cocanada is the great port of the Godavery, and as the river is opened up it will increase in importance and extent. We found sights very unusual in native seaports, iron steamers on the stocks, building or fitting out for river and coast. The noise of the hammer and anvil, the beat of the steam-tug and river-dredge, the crowds of artisans moving to and fro, recalled the dockyards of home. The river in former years (these works were begun in 1845) used to run bodily into the sea, and leave little behind it but desert. In the time of the freshes the waters would flood fiercely down, and sweep all before them. But the genius of cotton converted the demon torrent into a ministering angel, bringing mercy to millions. The whole delta is watered, the people paying the Government 2½ rupees an acre for irrigation; and you may imagine the dimensions of this blessing both to people and rulers when I tell you that the water-tax alone yields a revenue of from five to six lacs of rupees. The traffic on these water-paths engages 8,000 boats of different kinds. All life circulates through canals here. You hardly see a horse or land conveyance. One thing I have remarked ever since we landed at Cocanada, the absence of poverty; every native seems well to do. The villages appear to be full of comfort and this world's substance, so far at least as we have come. As we traversed the waste lands that lie between the villages, vast in extent and enriched by the deposits of the river, I could not help moralizing upon the wisdom of building our hopes upon foreign soil for cotton supply, and begging that from America, with the chance of a denial, which we may have in continual abundance from our own India. I have to express my very sincere thanks, and the thanks of tens of thousands, to the right hon. Baronet the Secretary of State for India for the interest which he has taken, and the vigorous despatches which he has written, in urging on these works. I have received only this morning a letter from a friend of Captain Haigh, the engineer-in-chief of the works, in which he says— I have a letter from Captain Haigh. He had advertised to carry goods and passengers from the 15th of last month (i.e. June) from Chanda to Cocanada by Government boats, and had 240 tons of cotton ready to begin with. It is clear, that if vessels were sent out, a vast quantity of cotton would be immediately brought home, since we find that at one point of delivery there will soon be 240 tons, or 14,000 bales, ready for export. We may look, I think, with some consolation to the state of things in the Dharwar. Only a few miles of railroad were wanting to complete communication from the interior to the coast, by which means the present expensive mode of transit on bullocks' backs to Bombay would be superseded. I have heard that in India there are about 6,000,000 bales of cotton ready for market. The difficulty is that a great deal of it is in places inaccessible by reason of the want of roads, canals, and railways; but when those means of intercommunication exist, India will pour forth more cotton than we can work up, if the amount of machinery employed were trebled. At the present moment, when we are suffering from a dearth of cotton, I believe there is more cotton lying idle in India than would keep going all the mills in Lancashire. In the report of that distinguished officer, Colonel Baird Smith, upon the condition of the North West Provinces, he observes upon the evil resulting from the want of inter-communication, and he says— So miserable, however, are the means of inter-communication in many of these districts of supply, that while in one bazaar famine prices of four rupees per maund might be ruling, in another, not thirty miles off, the price would be but about one rupee eight annas for the same quantity; yet no now from the full to the exhausted market could take place, because roads were not in existence, and means of carriage unknown. This state of things cannot be too soon remedied. … Within the famine tract itself, however, all is not bad. On about three-fifths of the ordinarily cultivated area the crops have entirely failed; but the remaining two-fifths have yielded crops, which, having been raised almost entirely by irrigation, are in these cases magnificent, and which generally have been found, by the actual results of the harvests, to be rather above than below the average yield. …. Turning now to the districts of supply, it will be found that several causes act to reduce the benefit that farmers obtain from the high prices in the famine tract markets to a very considerable degree. It is only when good means of communication and plentiful supplies of carriage exist that the importer can afford to give the producer a high price, and yet make his own fair profits. …. The chief consumers of English cloths here are all classes near to open and easy lines of communication, be they by land or water; a comparatively small section of agriculturists, being the upper grades of the class, at a distance from such communications; a very large proportion of the inhabitants of towns and cities everywhere, and, of course, the whole of the European community. The mass of the agricultural and the poorer non-agricultural classes have scarcely yet become the customers of Manchester at all, though it is merely a question of time and internal improvements of roads and rivers when they shall become so. I turn to the report on the famine in the North Western Provinces by Colonel Baird Smith. He says, speaking of the various subdivisions— First, the western lies wholly on the right bank of the River Jumna. It includes the Cis-Sutlej districts of Umballar and Thanaesur, within parts of which the want of water has told very severely. The richly-irrigated district of Paneeput and the northern (Pergunnah) subdivision of the Delhi district have virtually escaped all injury, by reason, firstly, of their being traversed by the Western Jumna Canal; next, of the continued drought having relieved them from the broad areas of swamp by which they are ordinarily infested, and having turned these useless lands into productive fields …. and the rivers sometimes run as wild as those of the Pontine marshes or the Tuscan Maremma, In respect to a good district, which did not suffer severely, he says— All its drainage is gathered into definite channels; wastes of swampy land are rare; the great boundary streams receive and carry off its surplus waters, and, excepting in the extreme north, water is usually in its right place as the slave of man, and not his tyrant …… The most characteristic feature of this section in reference to irrigation, however, is the large canals by which it is traversed. These have not reached a tithe of the development that waits them, as the various channels under construction are brought to completion, although even now in their incomplete state their action for good, both as insurances against loss of produce and stimulants to increased production, has been energetic in the highest degree …… So plentiful are the means of irrigation that many miles may be travelled in each of the Doab districts with rich crops on both hands. So earnest and active have the industrious classes of cultivators been that all their usual appliances for culture have been strained to the utmost. The peculiar call of the husbandman at the well was to be heard as continuously during the night as during the day. No men on earth could have faced a great calamity with a sturdier resolution, or, on the whole, with better success; for, by the timely and generous aid of Government in lightening helpfully the pressure of its public de- mand upon all such villages as really needed that aid, there has been as yet very little collapse among proprietary communities of the better farming tribes or castes. He then proceeds to show the effect produced by irrigation in the districts of the Doab, between the Ganges and Jumna. He says— Many subdivisions of them which are traversed by canals, and have long used canal irrigation, have doubled their annual gross produce since the last settlement. With regard to the value of the loss of agricultural produce, he says— If the aggregate of these losses throughout the famine tract be taken at three millions sterling, it will, I believe, be under the truth. He speaks of the benefit derived from canal tracts, and says— But for the existence of these fruitful canal tracts which run through the famine districts, as rods of iron run through tottering buildings, bonding and strengthening the community, these 160,000 people must have been supported by charity. He goes on to say, with respect to the Agra division, that in consequence of the famine of 1837–8— Government has received from the districts forming it less revenue, by an aggregate amount of the almost incredible sum of 1,32,85,000rs., or £1,328,500, than it would have done had it been possible by any expedients to have warded off the catastrophe. Speaking of Allahabad, he states— The division has not yet completely recovered itself, and its revenue is still about 2,00,000rs., or £20,000 per annum, below the standard previous to the famine. Now, let as see what may be done by irrigation. In respect to the irrigated estates in the Meerut district, he states— The annual value of the gross produce of one estate has risen 123 per cent; another, 98 per cent; a third, 68 per cent. Here is another striking proof, showing the progress of irrigation in twenty years. It is a comparative statement of villages irrigated from the Eastern Jumna Canal in the Saharunpore district, at settlement in 1840–1 and in 1860–1, and it appears that the annual rental on seventeen estates had increased in this time 130 per cent. and the Government revenue had increased 40 per cent. The civilizing and political effects are remarkable. He says— It is, of course, impossible for any race, or tribe, or clan, whatever its hereditary feelings or habits may be, to resist such fascinations as these; and the prospect of so doubling or more than doubling profits, while taxes continue unaltered, is an irresistible inducement to industry. Be the cultivators good or bad, be they on the one hand Jats or Aheers, or Koormees, or the like, or on the other hand Goojurs or Ranghurs, or Rajpoots, or the like, they are sure to yield to the inviting prospect; and while the one indefatigably extend their careful culture, the other break up their ancestral jungles, and plant wheat, where of old they pastured stolen cattle. I have repeatedly, in my own limited experience, turned tracts of country, notorious for the lawlessness of their people, into broad sheets of cultivation, by the simple expedient of running irrigation channels through the hearts of them. Now, for the effect produced by the Eastern Jumna Canal. He states— In estimating its ultimate value as a guarantee against the effects of drought, I would take at least 850,000 acres, or about 1,320 square miles, as the total measure of its protective influence. Thus your Lordships could judge of the great amount of blessing which, by a moderate expenditure, had been conferred. I will now refer to what is stated with respect to the Ganges Canal— The area protected from the effects of drought would therefore be about 1,002,264 acres, or 1,560 square miles. At this time none of its great branches were in action. All expenditure on these had of necessity been suspended under the financial pressure following the mutinies. …. When completed, the irrigated area will rise to 1,471,500 acres, and the protective influence of the canal will be felt over a total area of 4,414,500, or in round numbers 4,500,000 acres. …. The agricultural property dependent on the Ganges Canal already amounts to very close on a million and a half sterling of annual value. It will rise in time, if the agricultural community find they can rely implicitly on the virtual permanence of the supply, to fully six millions. And he adds— Experience in Hurriana, which was an absolute desert at the beginning of this century, shows conclusively how sure this effect is; and the existence of the Western Jumna Canal in that region has called into being, it may almost be said, both population and culture. On this point I might produce evidence indefinitely. Wherever irrigation is effected, the condition of the people is greatly improved in consequence of the increased produce of the land; and this is being felt every day, even by those who hold shares in railways; for as the condition of the people is bettered, it is found that the number of travellers is increased. Colonel Baird Smith says— Such a volume duly distributed, as the Jumna Canal supplies were in 1860–1, would be found sufficient for an area of irrigation of about 900,000 acres, and would insure against the effects of drought a tract of country having a total area of not less than 4,220 square miles. With respect to the Cis-Sutlej deserts, and what the proper use of the Sutlej water would effect, he states— The question here is, therefore, not to im- prove agriculture, but to create it; to enable an extensive and capable province to become, by its increased resources and the progressive improvement of its inhabitants, a source of strength and revenue to the State, instead of being, as now, a burden and weakness. Well, this being the state of things in all these districts which are brought under the influence of irrigation, it is no wonder that the Madras Irrigation Company should be desirous to extend throughout their district the same blessings. Bellary is singularly favourable to the growth of cotton, and in a remarkable report Captain (now Lieutenant Colonel) Rundall thus writes to the Madras Government, under the date of February 1, 1860— No one who has travelled through the northern talooks of Bellary and Kurnool could fail to be struck with the dreary aspect of the country; but to one like myself, coming from an abundantly irrigated district, the contrast between the luxuriant garden of Rajahmundry and the treeless and waterless plains of Bellary was most marked and painful. To an eye accustomed to the sight of an active and busy population, the almost total absence of life in the villages one passed through caused it to resemble more the country of the dead. The few ryots I met on the road to Kurnool pointed to their unploughed fields, and asked where the means of defraying the Government demand was to come from; and when I explained the probability of their soon being called upon to assist in the excavation of channels from the Toombuddra, they brightened up, and said, 'If such be the case, we shall not have to leave our homes to seek a livelihood in another and a better country.' This people, poorly clad, poorly housed, poorly fed, without water in summer, without fuel in winter, and exposed to periodical visitations from famine, present as pitiable a picture of the results of an unimproved country as can well be imagined. With the opportunity and means of rescue in our hands, can the responsibility be incurred of withholding them? Having myself, during the last sixteen years, seen the result of similar works in raising an equally depressed population from poverty to plenty, and from a listless apathy to an wholesome activity, I cannot conscientiously recommend that this portion of the project should be laid aside; but, on the contrary, feel it my duty earnestly to urge its execution. … The expenditure of the Company's money will not only of itself afford temporary relief and create a stimulus for exertion, but every rupee expended will be productive of permanent benefit; while it is almost certain, that if their expenditure is restricted, the Government will, as in 1854, have to incur a considerable outlay on their own account. Well, my Lords, the petition of the Cotton Supply Association states, that by their own agents they have made due inquiries as to the probable result of the irrigation system if carried into full operation in Bellary, and they proceed to state that the Madras Irrigation Company have offered to construct a canal which should place the district of Bellary in direct communication with the Coromandel Coast; and not only that, but they are prepared to introduce a new principle—that of expending their capital without a guarantee— The petitioners believe it to be most desirable that the district of Bellary should be, by means of a navigable canal, placed in direct communication with the Port of Madras, with a view to the shipment of cotton to England. The petitioners have heard with considerable satisfaction, that the Madras Irrigation and Canal Company have offered to construct the canal not only at their own risk, without asking for or receiving a guarantee of interest upon the requisite capital, but with the understanding that the Government of India shall participate equally with themselves in all surplus profits from irrigation after they shall have received 12 per cent therefrom upon their outlay. The petitioners submit that an offer like this should be readily and cordially assented to, and the Company be directly supported and encouraged by the Home Government of India. They desire not to be dependent on India for a supply of cotton any more than on America. What they desire is the desire of every man in England. From bitter experience we have learnt how necessary it is that Cotton should be grown in every clime and on every soil that may be capable of producing it. I am convinced that the finest cotton can be grown in Jamaica, in Queensland, and perhaps much nearer home, in the Holy Land and along the sea shore of Palestine, and I believe it is now agreed that we should have cotton from whatever place we can get it. All that the petitioners ask is this, that private enterprise may be allowed free scope and free action in its own department. It would be impossible that Government should undertake all the great works that would be necessary. It could not bestow its time upon them, nor would it have the capital that would be required. I believe, that among the first despatches presented to Parliament this Session was one in which the Calcutta Government informed the Government of Madras that they should be happy to place at the disposal of the latter eight lacs of rupees to be distributed over a period of three years. But what are eight lacs or £80,000 for such works as are required? Why, the company would expend in six months quite as much as the Government of India would expend in as many years, and the works would be well done too, and would confer a far greater amount of benefit on the population. The proposition that is now made is no new proposition. It has been already considered by the Go- vernment of India. Here is a despatch from the Madras Government dated December 6, 1860, which touches very forcibly on the subject, and gives the strongest advice that private enterprise should be permitted to take the works in hand. It says— Seeing the impossibility of effecting the Godavery works out of the budget allotments, and the apparent hopelessness of funds being available from other sources to such an extent as to admit of the works being completed within any reasonable period, we have come to the conclusion that it would be better for the State and the public to commit to private enterprise an undertaking which we cannot ourselves prosecute with the vigour and promptitude which its magnitude and importance merit. The work is of far too great importance, both to India and to England, to be undertaken in the petty and dilatory manner inevitable in the present state of the Indian finances; and, even to effect it thus, funds can be obtained only by restricting expenditure on other works highly profitable to Government, and highly important to the people of the presidency; whereas, by resorting to private enterprise, the navigation of the Godavery will be secured in much less time than if the work be reserved for execution by Government, and the money which in the latter case would be spent on it in small sums for years to come would be available for the completion of other valuable projects, as, for instance, the Godavery, Kistna, Nellore, and Palar Annicuts, works which are now being carried on inefficiently and slowly, Government also as a consequence losing much of the profits from their past heavy outlay on them, merely because, from want of funds, they are not completed. Such is the opinion of the Madras Government. We have also the opinion of the late Lord Canning, giving us another proof of the great reach of mind, the great capacity with which he governed that country, and the intelligence which he brought to bear upon all these subjects. In a despatch dated the 27th of December, 1860, speaking of the Godavery, Lord Canning says— I am entirely in favour of making this work over to a private company. I think that it may be done with much less risk of future difficulty than attaches to the making over of irrigation works. Contact between a private company and wealthy traders and carriers of merchandise is more likely to be manageable, and to manage itself, than relations between such a company and village communities of ryots, or single pauper cultivators. Lord Canning saw the danger there would be from bringing the ryots and smaller holders of land into contact with capitalists of large means, such as the Irrigation Company, the perpetual squabbles that would be likely to ensue, and the oppression that would necessarily result. He therefore proposed to obviate that danger by means of a consolidated assessment on the ryots, the Government taking the land-tax while the water-tax should be paid to the Irrigation Company. No doubt these things are very difficult in themselves, and years, perhaps more, must elapse before we are enabled to derive advantages from exertions of this kind. But they may prevent, as far as human exertions can, such a calamity as we are now suffering from, befalling us again. There is one thing which we must impress upon the minds of those who talk of "demand and supply." All that is very well when they have to deal with the civilized nations of Europe; but "demand" according to our European notions is not comprehended in India. The ryots do not comprehend it. Your demand in India must be an effective demand—the demand of agents with money in their hands, calling on the ryots and offering them silver rupees in exchange for cotton. With such a demand as that, I have no doubt that in the shortest possible time cotton would be derived plentifully from India. My Lords, I do hope and trust attention will be given to this matter, and that everything will be done to encourage private enterprise. I believe there never was such a field for improvement. Every one that goes to India says that the change that has taken place in that country in the social condition of the inhabitants, but, above all, in their domestic condition, is quite marvellous. I trust, then, that private enterprise will be encouraged; that much will be done by the intelligence, the zeal, and the spirit of a large portion of our manufacturers, by the wise measures of our Government, and, above all, by the blessing of Almighty God for the promotion of that work which cannot fail to be attended with benefit to so large a part of the human race.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

My Lords, I am very glad that even at this period of the Session my noble Friend has brought this subject under our consideration. The subject is one of great importance, but there are great difficulties connected with it. My noble Friend must be well aware of the alarming excitement which has prevailed during the last few months with respect to the supply of cotton. Very many schemes have been urged and pressed upon the Government to which no encouragement could be given. The schemes to which I allude are those by which, in one form or another, the Government should become the cultivators of cotton, or the parties to supply that article or guarantee its price. Those plans have been considered with attention by the Government, and have been as deliberately rejected—not on theories of political economy of doubtful application, but on the plain common sense principle, that the moment the Government interferes in such direction, they check, or perhaps entirely stop, that private enterprise to which, after all, we must in the main look for a supply of cotton as of all other commodities. I would observe that it is only of late years that the principle of private enterprise has been introduced in regard to public works in India. All those public works in reference to which we have heard such interesting facts from my noble Friend, were undertaken by the Government out of the public funds. I think it was so late as 1859, when Lord Stanley held the office of Secretary of State for India in the Government of Lord Derby, that direct encouragement was for the first time given to private enterprise engaged in public works in India. At that time I had the honour to address your Lordships on this subject, and I expressed a doubt as to whether it was expedient that the Government should guarantee to private companies any specific return for their capital; because I think, my Lords, that the giving of a guarantee of that kind to a particular company has an injurious effect on companies which have not such a guarantee. If you give such an advantage to one company, you cannot expect others to come forward and undertake public works on unequal terms. Therefore I think that the giving of guarantees to companies is a dangerous principle. At the same time, I think the step taken by Lord Stanley, with reference to the very Company on behalf of which the petition has been presented to-night, was a wise one, because, under the peculiar circumstances of the country, it was necessary to encourage such companies in the first instance. Well, my Lords, Lord Stanley—I believe rather against the opinion of the Madras Government at the time, who adhered to the old principle that such works as the Company proposed to undertake ought to be undertaken by the Government, and not by a private company—agreed to guarantee a certain fixed rate of interest to this Company, but on the distinct understanding that the sum to which the guarantee was to extend should not exceed £1,000,000. It was afterwards found, that owing to the estimates having been drawn up in a loose manner, or to the difficulty of ascertaining the exact amount that would be required, or to some other cause, the works would require a considerably larger sum than Lord Stanley had agreed to as the maximum. Accordingly, the Company, supported by the Madras Government, came to my right hon. Friend Sir Charles Wood, and asked him to extend the guarantee to a sum of £300,000 beyond the original £1,000,000. To that application my right hon. Friend returned a positive refusal. To show your Lordships how distinct was the understanding on which Lord Stanley had granted the guarantee, I shall quote two short passages from that noble Lord's answers to applications made to him on that subject. In one of his communications he says— Although grave objections are urged by the Government against committing to private enterprise the construction of works of irrigation, Lord Stanley is nevertheless disposed to make trial of that mode of procedure; but he considers it desirable to confine the experiment in the first instance to a single scheme, the estimated cost of which shall not exceed one million sterling. To a subsequent application he makes this reply— Another point on which you remark is the proposed limitation to one million sterling of the capital on which a minimum interest of 5 per cent is to be guaranteed. A sum more proportionate to the prospective scope of the company's undertakings would, it is urged, materially facilitate their operations, and attention is drawn to the fact that two millions is the amount specified in the company's Act of Incorporation, which has received the sanction of the Legislature. While Lord Stanley admits that it may be desirable hereafter to increase the capital to the full amount which the company are empowered to raise, he considers it expedient to limit the present experiment to an outlay of £1,000,000, reserving the question of granting a guarantee upon any further increase until the benefits resulting from the work have been ascertained. I think, my Lords, that my right hon. Friend Sir Charles Wood was wise in refusing to extend the guarantee—in limiting the experiment to the sum already agreed upon. In proof of his having acted wisely, I may observe that his refusal elicited from the Company a second proposal, to the effect that they would themselves expend the additional sum without a Government guarantee. I hope, therefore, that a satisfactory settlement between the Government and the Company will be come to before long, and I am glad that no delay in the works themselves is likely to arise from the negotiations to which I have referred. The noble Earl who has just sat down has expressed a strong hope as to the productive power of India in the article of cotton. I do not say that he has overstated the grounds for that hope, in which I participate to a large extent. With the single exception of corn, cotton is the article which can be grown over the largest surface of the earth—I mean having reference to the difficulties of soil and climate. The one condition that has enabled one portion of the earth to overcome others in the production of cotton is not a condition of soil or of climate, but a peculiar condition of labour. That circumstance has enabled the Southern States to beat all the world in the production of cotton. He must be a bold man who would speculate with any confidence as to the issue of the great contest now going on in America; but I think there is one thing quite clear—that the contest, however it may end, will not leave the condition of things with regard to labour in the Southern States as it was before the war. Whether the Government of the United States succeed in putting down the struggle of the South, or the Southern States succeed in making themselves independent of the Union, the result of the war will materially interfere with the operations of those who, previously to the present events, depended exclusively on the buying and breeding of slaves. Next to the Southern States of America, I believe British India affords the field most favourable for the growth of cotton, not only as to climate and soil, but also in respect to the condition of labour. My noble Friend has mentioned Africa, the Holy Land, and other places in which cotton may be grown. In some of those places the condition of labour is adverse to it; but when the communications are opened in India, the condition of labour is such that no other country in the world can so favourably compete with the Southern States of America. I have great hopes that in a few years, when the resources of India shall have been more developed, we shall depend on that country to a much larger extent than we have hitherto depended on it for our supply of cotton. There are no official accounts at the command of the Government, and no machinery to enable them to afford accurate information on the subject of the present cotton supply; but I have heard from private sources that the quantity of that article on its way to this country far exceeds the quantity sent over at this season in any former year. There can be little doubt, my Lords, that one of the results of the war in America will be, that we shall hereafter depend more than we have hitherto done on the British dominions for the supply of cotton necessary for the manufactures of this country.

LORD LYVEDEN

said, he did not think that their Lordships could so far concur in the prayer of the Petition as to testify their approbation of the particular scheme to which it had reference; but he thought they might testify their approbation generally of encouragement being given to those works which had for their object the improvement of the communications in India. His noble Friend (the Duke of Argyll) had said it was only lately that the principle of private enterprise in India had been acknowledged: but was that so? He believed it was not; and that it was owing to other causes that no one had had the courage to undertake works such as those referred to in the Petition presented by his noble Friend. For five years the Manchester manufacturers were pressing for an increased supply of cotton from India, and urging against the Government complaints, some of which were just, and others unjust; but although, when the price of American cotton was high, they raised this outcry for cotton from India, when it fell they were unwilling to take the Indian cotton. The whole question was one of price; and if these gentlemen had displayed as much energy with regard to obtaining cheap cotton to reduce the price of the raw material, as they did to obtaining cheap food to reduce the rate of wages, it would long ago have been settled. Shortly before he left the India office he promised this guarantee to the Madras Irrigation Company, greatly against the opinion of the East India Directors of that day, and he was very sorry that during the last three years nothing had been done, and that the time had been spent in a voluminous correspondence between the Company and the Department. He could himself see no inconvenience in allowing this Company to have one part of its capital guaranteed, and the rest not; and he hoped that not only would no further obstacles be thrown in the way of this Company's extending its capital without a guarantee, but that encouragement would be given to the for- mation of other companies under similar circumstances. If this question was not settled by next year, it would be desirable both that it and the whole constitution of the government of India should be referred to a Committee.

EARL FORTESCUE

said, he did not rise to prolong the discussion; but he did not wish it to go forth to the world on the authority of the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) that slave labour was cheaper than free labour, and that it had been owing to slave labour that the Southern States of America had surpassed the rest of the world in the production of cotton.

THE DUKE OF ARGYLL

said, he was sorry to be understood as stating that slave labour was, under all circumstances, more profitable than free labour. What he meant to have said was, that there was something in the condition of labour in the Southern States which had enabled them to grow cotton more successfully than any other part of the world.

THE MARQUESS OF CLANRICARDE

regretted that the noble Duke had not been able to give their Lordships more definite information as to the result of the communications between the Secretary of State for India and the Madras Irrigation Company. Provided that the guarantee was confined to a capital of one million, he did not see that any one except the company could have any interest in the question, whether they expended more than that amount upon the construction of the works. No doubt, it was quite right that all such undertakings as this should be left to private enterprise; but in many cases it might be necessary that the Government should give a guarantee, in order to bring private enterprise into play.

THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURY

wished it to be distinctly understood that he had no connection whatever with the Madras Irrigation Company. He had referred to it merely as an illustration of what might be done by regular organized effort.

Petition to lie on the table.

Address for Papers agreed to.